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I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference orga

I posted this on FB last night and had quite a discussion ensue. I really like what the author has to say about assumptions. As a user group and conference organizer, time and time again I have seen men approach feminine people in the crowd with these just terribly naïve prejudices. "Oh, you must be a junior dev." Or "Who are you here with?" We men should absolutely try to set these poor assumptions aside -- if not for better equality (although why not?), then because of the awkwardness that ensues when someone says "No, actually I'm giving the keynote" or "Yeah, I co-wrote that book." If you don't want to look like an idiot on the regular, don't go around the world thinking every competent person looks/acts/dresses/talks the way you do.

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfork_interview_she_s_tired_of_not_getting_credit_for_her_music.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.
- JDiculous 12y ago
  Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If you're a short white guy at an NBA event, people are going to assume you're not a pro basketball player. I'd imagine that the same thing holds true for men in female-dominated fields. Whenever there's a tiny minority, people will make assumptions. As long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to admit that you're wrong when told so, I don't see the problem. Realistically, there's nothing that will ever prevent people from making assumptions until the tiny minority stops being such a minority.
  - spiffyman 12y ago
    I don't think this is about whether it's natural to have assumptions. It's that the "tiny minority" (although I think your numbers are wrong) are consistently saying that those assumptions are offensive, exclusionary, off-putting, etc. So, natural or not, it behooves us to try to set them aside.
  - zeendo 12y ago
    Forget the connotation 'horrific'. Are you asking why we should work to stop this behavior? Pardon me for assuming but here are my thoughts - Because it's literally systematically oppressive. This behavior makes an entire gender less likely to participate in our field. That's bad for the gender and it's bad for the field. Isn't that enough reason to work to fix it? So what if there are non-malicious explanations for an individual to behave this way....that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop it.
    - JDiculous 12y ago
      I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any heavily majority-dominated field.
      - rfrey 12y ago
        Being short is a natural impediment to playing professional basketball. Being female is not a natural impediment to programming. So, even if you're correct that gender assumptions are valid (and apparently OK) because of the prevailing gender makeup, it is not impossible to fix - you fix it by changing the prevailing gender makeup. (I don't agree with that assumption, but let's grant it for the sake of exploring the other point.) If part of the reason for the prevailing gender split is the attitudes that are caused by the prevailing gender split, then sure, you have a chicken-and-egg problem. But it's far from impossible. You can, for example, change one half of the equation by social expectation manipulation. Or change the other half by affirmative action measures. You may think the cost is greater than the benefit, but it's not impossible.
- evincarofautumn 12y ago
  This was surprising and saddening…these are the sort of artists that I thought people sought out because they do so much interesting stuff largely on their own. I’ll admit I’m guilty of assuming Taylor Swift was merely a front for a pop machine, but that’s because I’d prefer to believe she’s a better person in real life than some of her songs would indicate.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jfc 12y ago
That's really the core issue: too many people believe that they can evaluate a person's technical knowledge based on physical appearance, which ends up including gender, race/ethnicity, sometimes even religion (if the person is wearing religious attire). It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming. Also: environments that are unpleasant/hostile/uncomfortable for "people outside the norm" make it difficult for such people to distinguish between sexism/racism/discrimination and legitimate feedback. For example, playing with one's hair during a presentation is often a sign of nervousness, but it is also a signal that conveys that nervousness to the audience. Is it distracting to some degree? Maybe, but more importantly, it detracts from her authority. Still, I can see why she responded as she did--if you are constantly undermined, under fire or criticized for no good reason, it becomes difficult to filter out which criticism/feedback is actually useful. Edited to add: Loved the artwork in that article.
- falcolas 12y ago
  > It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming. I hate to be the one to say it, but no, it's not easier. It's much more accurate, but it's not easier. Getting to know someone involves overcoming biases, stereotypes, first impressions, and a lot of time. The payout from expending this effort is a much richer experience, but it comes at the cost of having fewer experiences. I personally don't have the time or energy evaluate every person I meet with such scrutiny, and so I take shortcuts and evaluate them based on my experience with people superficially similar to them. I'm not ashamed of that, it's part of being a human with a finite amount of time to devote to interpersonal relationships.
  - jfc 12y ago
    Not really my point. I'm hardly suggesting that it's necessary to establish in-depth relationships with every person you meet. For me it's easier not to think about who a person might be and instead just ask them who they are.
Bahamut 12y ago
Or if one is going to make an assumption, err on the side of unoffensive ones. If there is a chance that it is offensive, don't verbalize it.
- rfrey 12y ago
  I very much like this simple, civilized rule. Some people may call that political correctness or something, but I call it manners.

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago

Reminds me of how when a female singer produces her own music and has limited assistance from a man, reviewers attribute the entire thing to the man: http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfork_interview_she_s_tired_of_not_getting_credit_for_her_music.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/01/21/bjork_pitchfo... It's not even some malicious, deliberate assumption. People have been raised to expect that it is men who do the "real work", and pass over women without thinking about it.

JDiculous 12y ago
Can someone explain to me why this is so horrific? When 95+% of music producers are male, of course men are going to assume that you're not a producer if you're female. When 90+% of developers are men, of course men are going to assume you're not a developer if you're a female. If I saw an extremely tall, handsome, well-dressed, and sociable man at a tech conference, I wouldn't take him to be a developer either. If you're a short white guy at an NBA event, people are going to assume you're not a pro basketball player. I'd imagine that the same thing holds true for men in female-dominated fields. Whenever there's a tiny minority, people will make assumptions. As long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to admit that you're wrong when told so, I don't see the problem. Realistically, there's nothing that will ever prevent people from making assumptions until the tiny minority stops being such a minority.
- spiffyman 12y ago
  I don't think this is about whether it's natural to have assumptions. It's that the "tiny minority" (although I think your numbers are wrong) are consistently saying that those assumptions are offensive, exclusionary, off-putting, etc. So, natural or not, it behooves us to try to set them aside.
- zeendo 12y ago
  Forget the connotation 'horrific'. Are you asking why we should work to stop this behavior? Pardon me for assuming but here are my thoughts - Because it's literally systematically oppressive. This behavior makes an entire gender less likely to participate in our field. That's bad for the gender and it's bad for the field. Isn't that enough reason to work to fix it? So what if there are non-malicious explanations for an individual to behave this way....that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop it.
  - JDiculous 12y ago
    I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any heavily majority-dominated field.
    - rfrey 12y ago
      Being short is a natural impediment to playing professional basketball. Being female is not a natural impediment to programming. So, even if you're correct that gender assumptions are valid (and apparently OK) because of the prevailing gender makeup, it is not impossible to fix - you fix it by changing the prevailing gender makeup. (I don't agree with that assumption, but let's grant it for the sake of exploring the other point.) If part of the reason for the prevailing gender split is the attitudes that are caused by the prevailing gender split, then sure, you have a chicken-and-egg problem. But it's far from impossible. You can, for example, change one half of the equation by social expectation manipulation. Or change the other half by affirmative action measures. You may think the cost is greater than the benefit, but it's not impossible.
evincarofautumn 12y ago
This was surprising and saddening…these are the sort of artists that I thought people sought out because they do so much interesting stuff largely on their own. I’ll admit I’m guilty of assuming Taylor Swift was merely a front for a pop machine, but that’s because I’d prefer to believe she’s a better person in real life than some of her songs would indicate.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jfc 12y ago

That's really the core issue: too many people believe that they can evaluate a person's technical knowledge based on physical appearance, which ends up including gender, race/ethnicity, sometimes even religion (if the person is wearing religious attire). It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming. Also: environments that are unpleasant/hostile/uncomfortable for "people outside the norm" make it difficult for such people to distinguish between sexism/racism/discrimination and legitimate feedback. For example, playing with one's hair during a presentation is often a sign of nervousness, but it is also a signal that conveys that nervousness to the audience. Is it distracting to some degree? Maybe, but more importantly, it detracts from her authority. Still, I can see why she responded as she did--if you are constantly undermined, under fire or criticized for no good reason, it becomes difficult to filter out which criticism/feedback is actually useful. Edited to add: Loved the artwork in that article.

falcolas 12y ago
> It's just easier to get to know people instead of assuming. I hate to be the one to say it, but no, it's not easier. It's much more accurate, but it's not easier. Getting to know someone involves overcoming biases, stereotypes, first impressions, and a lot of time. The payout from expending this effort is a much richer experience, but it comes at the cost of having fewer experiences. I personally don't have the time or energy evaluate every person I meet with such scrutiny, and so I take shortcuts and evaluate them based on my experience with people superficially similar to them. I'm not ashamed of that, it's part of being a human with a finite amount of time to devote to interpersonal relationships.
- jfc 12y ago
  Not really my point. I'm hardly suggesting that it's necessary to establish in-depth relationships with every person you meet. For me it's easier not to think about who a person might be and instead just ask them who they are.

Bahamut 12y ago

Or if one is going to make an assumption, err on the side of unoffensive ones. If there is a chance that it is offensive, don't verbalize it.

rfrey 12y ago
I very much like this simple, civilized rule. Some people may call that political correctness or something, but I call it manners.