4 ms·

The opposite of too regular is not necessarily "abuse of the C++ preprocessor" or unwarranted cleverness. The same phenomenon exists in natural languages: The

by sfk 12y ago

The opposite of too regular is not necessarily "abuse of the C++ preprocessor" or unwarranted cleverness. The same phenomenon exists in natural languages: The sentence structure in some passages of the bible is just too regular for me to be interesting, great authors on the other hand have an individual style while still writing with great clarity. Go's style is simply too paratactic for me.

deleted 12y ago
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xiaq 12y ago
It is not just regular. It is dull. Go is a miser. It gives you very few features to play with, forcing you to think hard about how you can solve real problems with these features in the most economic way. The result is much less fun, and the code you write is dull. But it is still useful, often as useful as what you write with a more fun language. And the probability that you will change your code because "feature X is the new hype" is considerably lower. Go is not perfect in any sense of the word; every now and then its feature set turns out to be genuinely limited, and you have to apply hacks. But sometimes when you are forced to think hard, it turns out that you can combine two or more dull features in a creative way to do something you thought were only possible with new, interesting features. This offers a perspective of looking at language features: what are really necessary, and what are there just because programmers want to have fun? Parsimony is a virtue appreciated everywhere in science and technology, except programming, where languages are rated by the number of features they include, and complexities get added to systems until they explode. The go perspective is a very, very valuable one in such a world.
- Dewie 12y ago
  > Parsimony is a virtue appreciated everywhere in science and technology, except programming, where languages are rated by the number of features they include, and complexities get added to systems until they explode. You're laughably wrong. There is an important school of thought in programming language design that emphasizes and heralds "language features" that are orthogonal, internally consistent and lean. In this school of thought, it is a plus (sometimes imposed as a necessity) when something can be expressed in the language by simply combining the primitive built-in "language features" in a certain way - as opposed to creating another "feature" altogether. And it is a plus when the list and specification of language features is short. And no - people who belong to this school of thought won't pine for more "features" so that they can make the whole thing more complicated for minor conveniences. Ask yourself. Which of these two languages are more likely to be complemented by language nerds/snobs - C++, or Scheme... And some people who apparently belong to this school of thought are criticizing Go for not being orthogonal enough. I wouldn't know about that - you would have to ask them about that. But if history is any indication, when something in Go is pointed out as not being orthogonal or simple, the goal post will change to nebulous claims of "pragmatism".
  - xiaq 12y ago
    > There is an important school of thought... We are advocating the same school of thought. However languages designed by such schools rarely get mainstream - Scheme, Lua, Smalltalk, to name a few that I know of. People acknowledge them, put them on the altar and ignore them. Go is the first language in decades I know of that boasts simplicity as a feature and gets mainstream; C is the last one before Go. There are things I dislike about Go (esp. lack of generics), but I find it worth defending. I apologize for my somewhat cynical intonation, if that caused confusions. > Ask yourself. Which of these two languages are more likely to be complemented by language nerds/snobs - C++, or Scheme... I don't understand this question. > And some people who apparently belong to this school of thought are criticizing Go for not being orthogonal enough. I am very eager to hear such criticisms, but I haven't come across any of them. Most "criticisms" on Go are simply "Go lacks feature X", which are simply invalid. A valid criticism is "It is very tricky for me to solve problem X with Go, and adding feature Y will make things easier", but I don't always buy it unless the author is smart enough to convince me that the difficulty lies in the limitation of Go instead of the author's intelligence.
    - cgag 12y ago
      I think some of those "Go lacks feature X" are the arguments you're eager to hear, and not simply invalid. Go lacking generics but having generic map/array types built in is an example of going against the Scheme school of thought. They're not built up from primitive features, but handed down as language features. I think this post makes those criticisms well: https://www.quora.com/Do-you-feel-that-golang-is-ugly/answer/Tikhon-Jelvis?srid=hMkC&share=1 https://www.quora.com/Do-you-feel-that-golang-is-ugly/answer...
      - Solarsail 12y ago
        In addition to those, there is Iota. Which is completely special-cased syntax sugar, which is not reusable outside of a single context. You can't use it at all more generally, and get potentially non-obvious code from using plain integers silently.
    - 12y ago
- deleted 12y ago
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by sfk 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

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xiaq 12y ago

It is not just regular. It is dull. Go is a miser. It gives you very few features to play with, forcing you to think hard about how you can solve real problems with these features in the most economic way. The result is much less fun, and the code you write is dull. But it is still useful, often as useful as what you write with a more fun language. And the probability that you will change your code because "feature X is the new hype" is considerably lower. Go is not perfect in any sense of the word; every now and then its feature set turns out to be genuinely limited, and you have to apply hacks. But sometimes when you are forced to think hard, it turns out that you can combine two or more dull features in a creative way to do something you thought were only possible with new, interesting features. This offers a perspective of looking at language features: what are really necessary, and what are there just because programmers want to have fun? Parsimony is a virtue appreciated everywhere in science and technology, except programming, where languages are rated by the number of features they include, and complexities get added to systems until they explode. The go perspective is a very, very valuable one in such a world.

Dewie 12y ago
> Parsimony is a virtue appreciated everywhere in science and technology, except programming, where languages are rated by the number of features they include, and complexities get added to systems until they explode. You're laughably wrong. There is an important school of thought in programming language design that emphasizes and heralds "language features" that are orthogonal, internally consistent and lean. In this school of thought, it is a plus (sometimes imposed as a necessity) when something can be expressed in the language by simply combining the primitive built-in "language features" in a certain way - as opposed to creating another "feature" altogether. And it is a plus when the list and specification of language features is short. And no - people who belong to this school of thought won't pine for more "features" so that they can make the whole thing more complicated for minor conveniences. Ask yourself. Which of these two languages are more likely to be complemented by language nerds/snobs - C++, or Scheme... And some people who apparently belong to this school of thought are criticizing Go for not being orthogonal enough. I wouldn't know about that - you would have to ask them about that. But if history is any indication, when something in Go is pointed out as not being orthogonal or simple, the goal post will change to nebulous claims of "pragmatism".
- xiaq 12y ago
  > There is an important school of thought... We are advocating the same school of thought. However languages designed by such schools rarely get mainstream - Scheme, Lua, Smalltalk, to name a few that I know of. People acknowledge them, put them on the altar and ignore them. Go is the first language in decades I know of that boasts simplicity as a feature and gets mainstream; C is the last one before Go. There are things I dislike about Go (esp. lack of generics), but I find it worth defending. I apologize for my somewhat cynical intonation, if that caused confusions. > Ask yourself. Which of these two languages are more likely to be complemented by language nerds/snobs - C++, or Scheme... I don't understand this question. > And some people who apparently belong to this school of thought are criticizing Go for not being orthogonal enough. I am very eager to hear such criticisms, but I haven't come across any of them. Most "criticisms" on Go are simply "Go lacks feature X", which are simply invalid. A valid criticism is "It is very tricky for me to solve problem X with Go, and adding feature Y will make things easier", but I don't always buy it unless the author is smart enough to convince me that the difficulty lies in the limitation of Go instead of the author's intelligence.
  - cgag 12y ago
    I think some of those "Go lacks feature X" are the arguments you're eager to hear, and not simply invalid. Go lacking generics but having generic map/array types built in is an example of going against the Scheme school of thought. They're not built up from primitive features, but handed down as language features. I think this post makes those criticisms well: https://www.quora.com/Do-you-feel-that-golang-is-ugly/answer/Tikhon-Jelvis?srid=hMkC&share=1 https://www.quora.com/Do-you-feel-that-golang-is-ugly/answer...
    - Solarsail 12y ago
      In addition to those, there is Iota. Which is completely special-cased syntax sugar, which is not reusable outside of a single context. You can't use it at all more generally, and get potentially non-obvious code from using plain integers silently.
  - 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
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