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> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibil

> people are fired all the time No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Now there are all kinds of downsides to that, and it's far from ideal especially for start-ups, but I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible and downright immoral behavior towards employees that's regularly on display here on HN and considered "normal". The cop-out of "this isn't working out, you're fired" borders on infantile behavior on the level of "I don't wanna play with you anymore". Firing people can have a devastating impact on the lives of the people it happens to. Firing people should not be that easy, and in most civilized countries it isn't.

omegaham 12y ago
I think that we get a really skewed view of things because we're on Hacker News, a site that focuses much more on startups. If we were on Factory Manager News or Corporate Retail News, there would be much, much less talk about firing. The practices of these startups are very different from established companies. I can't imagine IBM, Intel, or Microsoft engaging in this sort of behavior, for better (refraining from firing people for stupid, immature reasons) or for worse (not being able to get rid of shitty people). Startups are the Wild West when it comes to employment. Their nature means that many of the people running the show have never actually hired and managed employees before, and they have no good role models for doing so. Sometimes it works out well, and sometimes it works out atrociously.
paulhauggis 12y ago
"No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone." It's basically a court case to fire someone, which makes it very easy for employees that should be fired to keep their jobs. "The cop-out of "this isn't working out, you're fired" borders on infantile behavior on the level of "I don't wanna play with you anymore". Firing people can have a devastating impact on the lives of the people it happens to." Sometimes it isn't working out and that person needs to be let go. "Firing people should not be that easy, and in most civilized countries it isn't." There is a reason why the US has the most innovation as well as the best place to start a new company and one of the reasons is because it doesn't require a court case to let someone (that isn't working out) go. These kind of regulations prevent smaller companies from even starting and will create an environment with mostly large companies. It will eventually kill the startup scene that HN loves so much.
- mempko 12y ago
  There is a reason the US is also one of the worst places to be a working person, which most people are. In other words, we decided to structure our society to benefit a small elite group of people instead of the vast majority.
hoverkraft 12y ago
I have a lot of family in France, and based on what I've heard from them, the flip-side of those kinds of employment protections is that employers become much more reluctant to hire people (especially young people and people considered higher risk based on background, skills, etc.) Possible that this attitude (along with many other factors) contributes to the far less developed startup cultures of many Western European countries.
- aragot 12y ago
  Spain has a 15-days notice for termination and Luxembourg 1-month, France 3 months for IT jobs (I'm French) and I guess employee protection laws are proportional to those figures. So I wonder whether it's essntially France which is considers the employment contract as a blood pact.
  - catwell 12y ago
    I am French. The 3 month notice is when employees want to terminate a contract. The way the usual contract in IT (CDI) works is: you can have a 4-month trial period, which you can renew once. Then the employer cannot fire you without "serious cause" (and "bad performance" does not qualify). Some side-effects of that are: - Employers are afraid to hire, leading to long-term unemployment. - IT is dominated by huge consultancies (because companies prefer to contract out than hire). - As an employee, it is almost impossible to rent a flat in Paris during a trial period (because we also have laws that make it impossible to expell people who don't pay their rent). - Acquisitions are complicated because the acquirer needs to keep the whole team. An exception is companies that go broke (in which case they can fire part of the team and then be acquired). I understand why we have those laws, they are useful to protect some categories of people. But for higher revenue professions, we would be better off with a contract that is more flexible. More and more people are trying to work around this by creating single-person companies instead of being employed directly, but it is a mess (and the state is doing all it can to make it illegal...).
    - ngrilly 12y ago
      I am French too and I can corroborate that.
skwirl 12y ago
You're right, it is a very American way of doing business. But you haven't put forward any argument against it, other than basically saying that it makes you feel icky. We have a very individualistic culture in America. It has its positives and negatives. But most of the people here (software developers in America) have greatly benefited from that culture - we have a tremendous amount of opportunity in a field we enjoy and do very well financially. So we have no reason to complain. Even when we are fired most of us will find another job quickly that is still several times the median Western wage. I would say the results speak volumes as well. We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets. But there's one thing that I imagine has to be universal, which makes me wonder how much industry experience you've had. I think almost all of us have had the experience of working with someone who is a drag on their team. A bad developer does not result in 0 productivity, but huge productivity losses for the team. Sometimes people do just not work out, although maybe in Europe instead of firing them you rubber room them.
- abalone 12y ago
  > We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets. You're making a logical leap that this is because of firing people. Other small factors might include, for example, billions of dollars of U.S. government funding in high tech research, sustained over many decades, the fruits of which are directly transferred to Silicon Valley companies to bring to market. Incidentally, lots of that core research happens in the academic sector where the tenure system is common. Which makes firing really hard.
  - skwirl 12y ago
    I was actually referring to our culture (see the previous paragraph for context), which leads to both the increased firings and increased business success. Can you have less firings with the same success? It may be possible, but right now in America they are symptoms of the same thing. I also disagree with your assessment of our academic sector, which at the institutions that are leaders in research, is as cutthroat and competitive as anywhere in industry... actually, much more so. You make it seem like tenure is the same thing as European employment protections, which couldn't be further from reality. At the research universities you are talking about, it is very hard to get hired, easy to get fired, and once there, tenure is only granted after years of high stress, intense work, and proven success.
onewaystreet 12y ago
> In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Which is exactly why there are very few successful tech startups outside of the US. > But I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible and downright immoral behavior towards employees that's regularly on display here on HN and considered "normal". Don't cry for SV programmers making $130k+ who get fired, they will get a new job within a week. Fire fast also means hire fast (at least while the VC money keeps flowing).

omegaham 12y ago

I think that we get a really skewed view of things because we're on Hacker News, a site that focuses much more on startups. If we were on Factory Manager News or Corporate Retail News, there would be much, much less talk about firing. The practices of these startups are very different from established companies. I can't imagine IBM, Intel, or Microsoft engaging in this sort of behavior, for better (refraining from firing people for stupid, immature reasons) or for worse (not being able to get rid of shitty people). Startups are the Wild West when it comes to employment. Their nature means that many of the people running the show have never actually hired and managed employees before, and they have no good role models for doing so. Sometimes it works out well, and sometimes it works out atrociously.

paulhauggis 12y ago

"No, they're not. In the Western world, this is mostly an American thing. In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone." It's basically a court case to fire someone, which makes it very easy for employees that should be fired to keep their jobs. "The cop-out of "this isn't working out, you're fired" borders on infantile behavior on the level of "I don't wanna play with you anymore". Firing people can have a devastating impact on the lives of the people it happens to." Sometimes it isn't working out and that person needs to be let go. "Firing people should not be that easy, and in most civilized countries it isn't." There is a reason why the US has the most innovation as well as the best place to start a new company and one of the reasons is because it doesn't require a court case to let someone (that isn't working out) go. These kind of regulations prevent smaller companies from even starting and will create an environment with mostly large companies. It will eventually kill the startup scene that HN loves so much.

mempko 12y ago
There is a reason the US is also one of the worst places to be a working person, which most people are. In other words, we decided to structure our society to benefit a small elite group of people instead of the vast majority.

hoverkraft 12y ago

I have a lot of family in France, and based on what I've heard from them, the flip-side of those kinds of employment protections is that employers become much more reluctant to hire people (especially young people and people considered higher risk based on background, skills, etc.) Possible that this attitude (along with many other factors) contributes to the far less developed startup cultures of many Western European countries.

aragot 12y ago
Spain has a 15-days notice for termination and Luxembourg 1-month, France 3 months for IT jobs (I'm French) and I guess employee protection laws are proportional to those figures. So I wonder whether it's essntially France which is considers the employment contract as a blood pact.
- catwell 12y ago
  I am French. The 3 month notice is when employees want to terminate a contract. The way the usual contract in IT (CDI) works is: you can have a 4-month trial period, which you can renew once. Then the employer cannot fire you without "serious cause" (and "bad performance" does not qualify). Some side-effects of that are: - Employers are afraid to hire, leading to long-term unemployment. - IT is dominated by huge consultancies (because companies prefer to contract out than hire). - As an employee, it is almost impossible to rent a flat in Paris during a trial period (because we also have laws that make it impossible to expell people who don't pay their rent). - Acquisitions are complicated because the acquirer needs to keep the whole team. An exception is companies that go broke (in which case they can fire part of the team and then be acquired). I understand why we have those laws, they are useful to protect some categories of people. But for higher revenue professions, we would be better off with a contract that is more flexible. More and more people are trying to work around this by creating single-person companies instead of being employed directly, but it is a mess (and the state is doing all it can to make it illegal...).
  - ngrilly 12y ago
    I am French too and I can corroborate that.

skwirl 12y ago

You're right, it is a very American way of doing business. But you haven't put forward any argument against it, other than basically saying that it makes you feel icky. We have a very individualistic culture in America. It has its positives and negatives. But most of the people here (software developers in America) have greatly benefited from that culture - we have a tremendous amount of opportunity in a field we enjoy and do very well financially. So we have no reason to complain. Even when we are fired most of us will find another job quickly that is still several times the median Western wage. I would say the results speak volumes as well. We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets. But there's one thing that I imagine has to be universal, which makes me wonder how much industry experience you've had. I think almost all of us have had the experience of working with someone who is a drag on their team. A bad developer does not result in 0 productivity, but huge productivity losses for the team. Sometimes people do just not work out, although maybe in Europe instead of firing them you rubber room them.

abalone 12y ago
> We are the center of the startup world and our big tech companies disproportionately dominate world markets. You're making a logical leap that this is because of firing people. Other small factors might include, for example, billions of dollars of U.S. government funding in high tech research, sustained over many decades, the fruits of which are directly transferred to Silicon Valley companies to bring to market. Incidentally, lots of that core research happens in the academic sector where the tenure system is common. Which makes firing really hard.
- skwirl 12y ago
  I was actually referring to our culture (see the previous paragraph for context), which leads to both the increased firings and increased business success. Can you have less firings with the same success? It may be possible, but right now in America they are symptoms of the same thing. I also disagree with your assessment of our academic sector, which at the institutions that are leaders in research, is as cutthroat and competitive as anywhere in industry... actually, much more so. You make it seem like tenure is the same thing as European employment protections, which couldn't be further from reality. At the research universities you are talking about, it is very hard to get hired, easy to get fired, and once there, tenure is only granted after years of high stress, intense work, and proven success.

onewaystreet 12y ago

> In most Western countries, there's a major responsibility for the employer to prove there is no other way before getting permission to fire someone. Which is exactly why there are very few successful tech startups outside of the US. > But I do like the way it doesn't tolerate the immature, irresponsible and downright immoral behavior towards employees that's regularly on display here on HN and considered "normal". Don't cry for SV programmers making $130k+ who get fired, they will get a new job within a week. Fire fast also means hire fast (at least while the VC money keeps flowing).