7 ms·

> you can do everything right and still get fired And that's why much of the world has a social safety net.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
I don't disagree. As a US citizen, I pine for the social safety nets in Canada and Europe. I'm playing the hand I was dealt.
- vhodges 12y ago
  I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things like dental, eyewear, prescriptions etc. This all goes away when you're let go. We have employment insurance, which is also mandatory (mostly) to pay into, but it only pays about 1700/month and payments only last 15 weeks (after a 3 week waiting period). Yes, it's nice to have some money coming in, but it's nowhere near enough for more than a month or two. And lastly Welfare only pays about $650/Month not even enough for rent anywhere Metro Vancouver or the Fraser Valley.
  - vhodges 12y ago
    Oh and I forgot, if you're fired with cause, you don't qualify for EI. You only get EI if you're laid off for lack of work.
    - afterburner 12y ago
      You can dispute this, and in most cases you'll get the EI anyways.
    - markcampbell 12y ago
      Being fired for cause in this case refers to misconduct at the job, which is quite different from just being not good enough at your job. I won't repost the list, but you can find the definition and the most common list on their website here: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/misconduct.shtml http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/misconduct...
  - ethagnawl 12y ago
    The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, that's nearly $350K and doesn't cover any of the out-of-pocket costs that we'll incur should we decide to actually use the damn plan.
    - swalberg 12y ago
      This is on top of a 46% marginal income tax rate and 12% sales tax. I don't know what the BC plan is like, but in Manitoba if I didn't have any coverage through my employer I'd be paying for almost everything except visiting a doctor or ER. And you're still stuck in a line to see specialists. It's not unheard of to schedule an appointment with a specialist a year out.
      - vhodges 12y ago
        Coverage/participation is mandatory - they send collections after you if you stop paying in BC
      - markcampbell 12y ago
        Manitoba Pharmacare exists for prescription plans and is income adjusted. Similar story in Ontario with the Trillium drug plan. I'm certain other provinces are similar. People with true emergent cases are seen quickly. You may not, but it's probably because it's not an emergency.
    - vhodges 12y ago
      Sure, my only point is it's not universal nor free (so many pundits in the US seem to think it is). Family of 2-4 is 104/month in BC. Note, this does not include anything beyond medical, ie not ambulances, not vision, no private rooms, no dental, no physio and not prescriptions and in BC does NOT cover things like IVF (Ontario does cover up to 3 attempts). Those are all extra (to the tune of 200-300/month for a family - usually paid by your employer - there are plans for solo/self employed http://www.coverme.com/ http://www.coverme.com/ for instance).
  - benfrederickson 12y ago
    MSP is mandatory - but its tied to how much money you make. Most people here are probably making enough that they are paying the maximum amount (which is $72 for an individual these days), but as a university student I had the same coverage for free. EI coverage last significantly longer than 15 weeks if you've been working full time in the last year. It depends on the regional unemployment rate - for BC its probably around 36 weeks: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/regular.shtml#long1 http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/regular.shtml#lo... .
- lmm 12y ago
  Emigration is an option, and an easier one than people treat it as. There are plenty of good reasons to want to stay where you are, but it's worth remembering that you have the option.
cylinder 12y ago
We have mandatory unemployment insurance which pays pretty well. These are well-paid white collar professionals, they should be saving up emergency funds. I'm more worried about the safety net for low- and mid-income workers, as well as the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment.
- ianlevesque 12y ago
  Yes, the health insurance one is the big issue in the US. Even with emergency funds after the COBRA period ends you simply cannot buy the same health plan individually, no matter what you were willing to pay. Many people are surprised by this.
  - 3am 12y ago
    Yes, and pre-ACA, if were diagnosed with anything during a coverage gap, it would fall into the dreaded "pre-existing condition" category.
  - joesmo 12y ago
    Post-ACA there are plenty of good plans to purchase beyond COBRA so this is now really only an issue of affordability. They are rather expensive, especially for one who doesn't have a job and getting on Medicaid Expansion can take many months, if one is even eligible (which one is likely not to be if he's worked at all that year). Likewise, other ACA discount will not apply if one has made any decent amount of money that calendar year, I believe.
- NateDad 12y ago
  Uh, have you been on unemployment? There's a max. In Massachusetts it's $698 / week (with no taxes taken out). That would only barely cover my mortgage, let alone car payment, food, health insurance, etc. And yes, people should have emergency funds... but when you were a few years out of college, did you have 3-6 months of salary saved up? I certainly didn't.
  - mod 12y ago
benihana 12y ago
Okay, you've made your point that America is backwards and doesn't look out for its workers. Nice one! Do you have anything to say that might help people who happen to agree with you but are powerless to change it, and in need of income? Because while it really feels good to find things that confirm that your opinions are correct, being correct doesn't put food on the table and it doesn't help unemployed people find a job.
spiritplumber 12y ago
You can also get fired FOR doing everything right. It happened to me once. I fired back. All I had to do was publicize the fact that the so-called CEO was selling weed on a NASA installation as a side business, which is an extremely stupid thing to do and an even stupider thing to tell your so-called subordinate about (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous).
- chroma 12y ago
  Your story is short and doesn't mention many potentially important facts, but it left me with the impression that you are rather vengeful. Selling marijuana may be illegal and unwise, but it's not very harmful. > (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous). And so humble!
  - spiritplumber 12y ago
    Being vengeful is sometimes necessary. It's not a virtue, but it's not a vice either. If the market for justice is inelastic or rigged, make your own. The hard part is to not go overboard - being fair to someone who hurt you, once you have them beaten, requires great self-discipline. And yes, if someone just sort of declares themselves CEO in interviews just because they have a famous relative and have an easier time getting invited to talks, me insisting that we are equal partner is humble. This person contributed little else to the business. I don't have a problem with marijuana (don't want any, but it should be legal), I have a problem with people who steal credit for my work.

I don't disagree. As a US citizen, I pine for the social safety nets in Canada and Europe. I'm playing the hand I was dealt.

vhodges 12y ago
I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things like dental, eyewear, prescriptions etc. This all goes away when you're let go. We have employment insurance, which is also mandatory (mostly) to pay into, but it only pays about 1700/month and payments only last 15 weeks (after a 3 week waiting period). Yes, it's nice to have some money coming in, but it's nowhere near enough for more than a month or two. And lastly Welfare only pays about $650/Month not even enough for rent anywhere Metro Vancouver or the Fraser Valley.
- vhodges 12y ago
  Oh and I forgot, if you're fired with cause, you don't qualify for EI. You only get EI if you're laid off for lack of work.
  - afterburner 12y ago
    You can dispute this, and in most cases you'll get the EI anyways.
  - markcampbell 12y ago
    Being fired for cause in this case refers to misconduct at the job, which is quite different from just being not good enough at your job. I won't repost the list, but you can find the definition and the most common list on their website here: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/misconduct.shtml http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/misconduct...
- ethagnawl 12y ago
  The MSP side of what you've described sounds to me like _all it's cracked up to be_. I live in the U.S. and recently enrolled my family of two in the cheapest healthcare plan available (high deductible, no dental, no vision) through the Freelancers Union - which I'm required to do as part of the Affordable Healthcare Act - and it's going to cost me USD $814 per month ... for the next 35 years. In today's dollars, that's nearly $350K and doesn't cover any of the out-of-pocket costs that we'll incur should we decide to actually use the damn plan.
  - swalberg 12y ago
    This is on top of a 46% marginal income tax rate and 12% sales tax. I don't know what the BC plan is like, but in Manitoba if I didn't have any coverage through my employer I'd be paying for almost everything except visiting a doctor or ER. And you're still stuck in a line to see specialists. It's not unheard of to schedule an appointment with a specialist a year out.
    - vhodges 12y ago
      Coverage/participation is mandatory - they send collections after you if you stop paying in BC
    - markcampbell 12y ago
      Manitoba Pharmacare exists for prescription plans and is income adjusted. Similar story in Ontario with the Trillium drug plan. I'm certain other provinces are similar. People with true emergent cases are seen quickly. You may not, but it's probably because it's not an emergency.
  - vhodges 12y ago
    Sure, my only point is it's not universal nor free (so many pundits in the US seem to think it is). Family of 2-4 is 104/month in BC. Note, this does not include anything beyond medical, ie not ambulances, not vision, no private rooms, no dental, no physio and not prescriptions and in BC does NOT cover things like IVF (Ontario does cover up to 3 attempts). Those are all extra (to the tune of 200-300/month for a family - usually paid by your employer - there are plans for solo/self employed http://www.coverme.com/ http://www.coverme.com/ for instance).
- benfrederickson 12y ago
  MSP is mandatory - but its tied to how much money you make. Most people here are probably making enough that they are paying the maximum amount (which is $72 for an individual these days), but as a university student I had the same coverage for free. EI coverage last significantly longer than 15 weeks if you've been working full time in the last year. It depends on the regional unemployment rate - for BC its probably around 36 weeks: http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/regular.shtml#long1 http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/regular.shtml#lo... .
lmm 12y ago
Emigration is an option, and an easier one than people treat it as. There are plenty of good reasons to want to stay where you are, but it's worth remembering that you have the option.

cylinder 12y ago

We have mandatory unemployment insurance which pays pretty well. These are well-paid white collar professionals, they should be saving up emergency funds. I'm more worried about the safety net for low- and mid-income workers, as well as the fact that health insurance is tied to your employment.

ianlevesque 12y ago
Yes, the health insurance one is the big issue in the US. Even with emergency funds after the COBRA period ends you simply cannot buy the same health plan individually, no matter what you were willing to pay. Many people are surprised by this.
- 3am 12y ago
  Yes, and pre-ACA, if were diagnosed with anything during a coverage gap, it would fall into the dreaded "pre-existing condition" category.
- joesmo 12y ago
  Post-ACA there are plenty of good plans to purchase beyond COBRA so this is now really only an issue of affordability. They are rather expensive, especially for one who doesn't have a job and getting on Medicaid Expansion can take many months, if one is even eligible (which one is likely not to be if he's worked at all that year). Likewise, other ACA discount will not apply if one has made any decent amount of money that calendar year, I believe.
NateDad 12y ago
Uh, have you been on unemployment? There's a max. In Massachusetts it's $698 / week (with no taxes taken out). That would only barely cover my mortgage, let alone car payment, food, health insurance, etc. And yes, people should have emergency funds... but when you were a few years out of college, did you have 3-6 months of salary saved up? I certainly didn't.
- mod 12y ago

benihana 12y ago

Okay, you've made your point that America is backwards and doesn't look out for its workers. Nice one! Do you have anything to say that might help people who happen to agree with you but are powerless to change it, and in need of income? Because while it really feels good to find things that confirm that your opinions are correct, being correct doesn't put food on the table and it doesn't help unemployed people find a job.

spiritplumber 12y ago

You can also get fired FOR doing everything right. It happened to me once. I fired back. All I had to do was publicize the fact that the so-called CEO was selling weed on a NASA installation as a side business, which is an extremely stupid thing to do and an even stupider thing to tell your so-called subordinate about (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous).

chroma 12y ago
Your story is short and doesn't mention many potentially important facts, but it left me with the impression that you are rather vengeful. Selling marijuana may be illegal and unwise, but it's not very harmful. > (Dude, if I am older than you, bigger than you, developed the tech, and put more money into the business than you - I am not your subordinate. I am your equal, and even that because I am magnanimous). And so humble!
- spiritplumber 12y ago
  Being vengeful is sometimes necessary. It's not a virtue, but it's not a vice either. If the market for justice is inelastic or rigged, make your own. The hard part is to not go overboard - being fair to someone who hurt you, once you have them beaten, requires great self-discipline. And yes, if someone just sort of declares themselves CEO in interviews just because they have a famous relative and have an easier time getting invited to talks, me insisting that we are equal partner is humble. This person contributed little else to the business. I don't have a problem with marijuana (don't want any, but it should be legal), I have a problem with people who steal credit for my work.