5 ms·

Could you expand on the "not all consent is created equal" part? Is it related to other things such as sexual slavery?

x0x0 12y ago
If a starving or addicted person does X for $Y, is that true consent? While you're not literally raping the person, it's closer to rape than consent imo.
- smtddr 12y ago
  If we go down this logical path, I'd say society already has lower-than-minimum-wage and/or dangerous jobs being done by people who have no feasible alternative... so we've kinda already accepted that this situation will occur for some people. Not saying this is okay, just saying that legalized prostitution as a profession would just be another dangerous job in a long list of other extremely hazardous jobs people probably shouldn't do, but end up doing anyway.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    Continuing down that logical path, it's impossible to have a truly consensual business transaction of any sort because the involvement of currency makes it coercive.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - smtddr 12y ago
      I think the implied part of this discussion is "captive". The person must at least feel that there is no other choice. We see that in prostitution, in illegal immigrants working in horrible conditions, Dubai laborers[1], etc. In contrast, a Software Developer in the Bay area can hardly claim such conditions. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/oct/23/migrant-domestic-workers-uae-beaten-abused http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/oct/23/mi...
      - Kalium 12y ago
        I think the implied part of this discussion is that there are transactions taking place with a power imbalance between the parties. If that is not acceptable, most of capitalism will promptly fall apart.
    - dredmorbius 12y ago
      While I tend to agree that many (though not necessarily all) transactions exhibit a power imbalance, I disagree strongly that it's currency (or money, or other forms of exchange) which make it so. Though if you'd care to expand, I'd be interested in your argument.
      - Kalium 12y ago
        You're right, it's not currency that creates the power imbalance.
- meric 12y ago
  You suggest they aren't capable of making rational decisions as an adult in their own interests, and consequently implicitly comparing them to mentally-ill people who are wards of the state.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    That is literally true of addicts, so yes. Just like we don't let impaired people enter into binding contracts.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- tsotha 12y ago
  That implies every financial transaction is rape.
  - m_eiman 12y ago
    Not every financial transaction is of the kind "sell this or starve" (including a lot of the sex sold, I'm sure).
    - tsotha 12y ago
      Then it's not an argument against prostitution so much as an argument against selling things to poor people.
      - ptaipale 12y ago
        Or perhaps against buying things (or work) from poor people?
        tsotha 12y ago
        True. I'm sold. We need a law against having financial dealings with poor people. Think of the children.
        detcader 12y ago
        No, a man using a woman for sex when she can not give consent is already called "rape" and is illegal, because we as a civilization understand that this causes significant trauma for individuals -- that is, it's categorized as "violence". Buying services and goods, on the other hand, is not violent, like rape is, although we could see the fact of poor people (or all people, really) having to sell portions of their lives to strangers to survive as unfortunate and alienating. This is, I think, where Marxism comes from.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        I think you misunderstood, because you missed the sarcastic tone that I perceived in the previous parent comment. I agree with what you wrote, of course. I may not like the existence of prostitution, but in order to have others respect my strange preferences, I'll have to respect the strange preferences of others, as long as it's consenting adults doing things.
- iopq 12y ago
  If a starving person works for Walmart for $10 an hour, is that slavery?
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    Possibly. If their personal situation is sufficiently bleak, and there are mechanisms that are arbitrary and unfair helping to keep them in that situation. However, it's almost universally true that any given person has far more choice than they are aware of.
    - iopq 12y ago
      Sure, then working and prostitution is the same thing. You give your time and services so that you receive payment. Both could be coerced in a bad way like slavery, or being forced into prostitution. Then the argument is if a person is not forced into prostitution but chooses it as their livelihood, shouldn't it be acceptable?
- icebraining 12y ago
  I'm completely sympathetic to that view, but if the person has the choice of prostituting her/himself or starve, and you ban the first option, what so you think will happen? If you want to prevent these situation you're describing, you need to give people a third option, that enables them to avoid the first two. Criminalizing prostitution will just harm those you want to help. EDIT: from your other post, it seems we're in agreement.
cmsmith 12y ago
For an extreme example, it's generally considered a bad idea to let people get paid for 'donating' organs. In addition to the practical problem (paid donors are more likely to lie about the condition of the donation), there is an ethical problem - the rich can buy health at the expense of the poor. The actual cost to the donor is related to the chance they might need that lung or kidney in 30 years, and is nearly impossible to quantify or for the donor to give informed consent. Of course, we do let 18 year olds pose naked for magazines without considering the cost of not being able to run for political office in 30 years. In that case the long term cost is lower and easier to anticipate. Prostitution is somewhere between those examples. It attracts those without other options, who might not be able to rationally weigh the risks of future medical or psychological harm against a current financial gain.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Do you support the legalization of abortion? I think the exact same argument would apply, do you disagree?

x0x0 12y ago

If a starving or addicted person does X for $Y, is that true consent? While you're not literally raping the person, it's closer to rape than consent imo.

smtddr 12y ago
If we go down this logical path, I'd say society already has lower-than-minimum-wage and/or dangerous jobs being done by people who have no feasible alternative... so we've kinda already accepted that this situation will occur for some people. Not saying this is okay, just saying that legalized prostitution as a profession would just be another dangerous job in a long list of other extremely hazardous jobs people probably shouldn't do, but end up doing anyway.
- Kalium 12y ago
  Continuing down that logical path, it's impossible to have a truly consensual business transaction of any sort because the involvement of currency makes it coercive.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - smtddr 12y ago
    I think the implied part of this discussion is "captive". The person must at least feel that there is no other choice. We see that in prostitution, in illegal immigrants working in horrible conditions, Dubai laborers[1], etc. In contrast, a Software Developer in the Bay area can hardly claim such conditions. 1. http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/oct/23/migrant-domestic-workers-uae-beaten-abused http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/oct/23/mi...
    - Kalium 12y ago
      I think the implied part of this discussion is that there are transactions taking place with a power imbalance between the parties. If that is not acceptable, most of capitalism will promptly fall apart.
  - dredmorbius 12y ago
    While I tend to agree that many (though not necessarily all) transactions exhibit a power imbalance, I disagree strongly that it's currency (or money, or other forms of exchange) which make it so. Though if you'd care to expand, I'd be interested in your argument.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      You're right, it's not currency that creates the power imbalance.
meric 12y ago
You suggest they aren't capable of making rational decisions as an adult in their own interests, and consequently implicitly comparing them to mentally-ill people who are wards of the state.
- x0x0 12y ago
  That is literally true of addicts, so yes. Just like we don't let impaired people enter into binding contracts.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
tsotha 12y ago
That implies every financial transaction is rape.
- m_eiman 12y ago
  Not every financial transaction is of the kind "sell this or starve" (including a lot of the sex sold, I'm sure).
  - tsotha 12y ago
    Then it's not an argument against prostitution so much as an argument against selling things to poor people.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      Or perhaps against buying things (or work) from poor people?
      - tsotha 12y ago
        True. I'm sold. We need a law against having financial dealings with poor people. Think of the children.
      - detcader 12y ago
        No, a man using a woman for sex when she can not give consent is already called "rape" and is illegal, because we as a civilization understand that this causes significant trauma for individuals -- that is, it's categorized as "violence". Buying services and goods, on the other hand, is not violent, like rape is, although we could see the fact of poor people (or all people, really) having to sell portions of their lives to strangers to survive as unfortunate and alienating. This is, I think, where Marxism comes from.
        ptaipale 12y ago
        I think you misunderstood, because you missed the sarcastic tone that I perceived in the previous parent comment. I agree with what you wrote, of course. I may not like the existence of prostitution, but in order to have others respect my strange preferences, I'll have to respect the strange preferences of others, as long as it's consenting adults doing things.
iopq 12y ago
If a starving person works for Walmart for $10 an hour, is that slavery?
- stcredzero 12y ago
  Possibly. If their personal situation is sufficiently bleak, and there are mechanisms that are arbitrary and unfair helping to keep them in that situation. However, it's almost universally true that any given person has far more choice than they are aware of.
  - iopq 12y ago
    Sure, then working and prostitution is the same thing. You give your time and services so that you receive payment. Both could be coerced in a bad way like slavery, or being forced into prostitution. Then the argument is if a person is not forced into prostitution but chooses it as their livelihood, shouldn't it be acceptable?
icebraining 12y ago
I'm completely sympathetic to that view, but if the person has the choice of prostituting her/himself or starve, and you ban the first option, what so you think will happen? If you want to prevent these situation you're describing, you need to give people a third option, that enables them to avoid the first two. Criminalizing prostitution will just harm those you want to help. EDIT: from your other post, it seems we're in agreement.

cmsmith 12y ago

For an extreme example, it's generally considered a bad idea to let people get paid for 'donating' organs. In addition to the practical problem (paid donors are more likely to lie about the condition of the donation), there is an ethical problem - the rich can buy health at the expense of the poor. The actual cost to the donor is related to the chance they might need that lung or kidney in 30 years, and is nearly impossible to quantify or for the donor to give informed consent. Of course, we do let 18 year olds pose naked for magazines without considering the cost of not being able to run for political office in 30 years. In that case the long term cost is lower and easier to anticipate. Prostitution is somewhere between those examples. It attracts those without other options, who might not be able to rationally weigh the risks of future medical or psychological harm against a current financial gain.

icebraining 12y ago
Do you support the legalization of abortion? I think the exact same argument would apply, do you disagree?