4 ms·

That's a bullshit excuse border guards give to search electronic storage.

by Canada 12y ago

cpncrunch 12y ago
Why is it a "bullshit excuse" if they do actually manage to catch many people by searching phones?
- Karunamon 12y ago
  It's a bullshit excuse because "protecting the children" are items #1 and #2 on the list of "flimsy justifications for surveillance overreach", right next to "preventing terrorism" at #3. I'm serious. Any time you hear those terms and the discussion is not about speed limits in a school zone, red flags should be going up in your mind. It's not about how many people they catch - even if they had a 100% success rate at nabbing every abuser that crossed the border, it's about civil liberties.
  - cpncrunch 12y ago
    I was simply pointing out the reason for the searches. As it stands, the law currently lets them do these searches, and I was explaining the reasoning behind these searches (which should be pretty obvious to anyone who has watched those TV shows). As for why they want to search for pedophiles at airports: the reason is presumably because there is a serious problem of child sex tourism in certain countries (Thailand for example). You could use the same argument about guns or drugs -- why search people who they suspect are carrying guns or drugs? The reasoning is presumably that stopping these at the border prevents them from coming into the country. To be honest I don't have a problem with being searched at airports. IMO the small inconvenience is outweighed by the benefit of putting the occasional pedophile in jail, preventing diseases from fruit/meat entering our country, and criminals bringing machine guns into the country, etc. I guess from the downvotes and comments that a lot of HN posters have a different opinion.
    - jnbiche 12y ago
      Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Franklin, Benjamin By the way, the real cap'n crunch would be ashamed of the attitude you have expressed, as I'm sure you know.
      - cpncrunch 12y ago
        I think you should perhaps research what that quote actually means. Hint: it means pretty much the opposite of what you think it means.
        mg1982 12y ago
        http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/ http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-... Interesting, thanks!
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Imagine how many more criminals we could catch if we could search their homes at will! Or listen in to every single conversation. Why stop there, perhaps make citizens check-in every 15 minutes with a quick video? This is one of the main points of having civil liberties.
- Canada 12y ago
  The fact of the matter is they don't. What they want to do is go fishing through your papers and they cynically use this catch all excuse when challenged. In Canada it isn't legal to arbitrarily search people even at the border. Reasonable cause is necessary: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-52.6/page-64.html#h-76 http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-52.6/page-64.html#... There is both plenty of incentive and no consequences for conducting unlawful searches.
  - cpncrunch 12y ago
    >The fact of the matter is they don't Do you have any references for that? From what I can see on programmes like Border Security, they do catch a lot of people this way, and they do always have reasonable grounds for the search. Also, how does that law allow random searches at airports (which are presumably legal)? Is there another law which permits those?
    - Canada 12y ago
      Shows like that are pure PR. Border guards aren't going to break the rules while they're on camera. And even if they did, the shows producers aren't likely to include it. Random searches are not legal in Canada. Border guards take advantage of the fact that nobody wants to look guilty by refusing to be searched. They exploit the public's ignorance of the law and use intimidation.
      - cpncrunch 12y ago
        Actually, it is legal in Canada for border officers to inspect any goods being carried across the border -- not even suspicion of illegal activity is needed. See section 99(1)a of the customs act. I don't think this would allow them to search your phone. However that may be permitted if they have reasonable suspicion.
        Canada 12y ago
        There's a very important difference between inspecting the goods and searching your person and papers. (These details matter. Note your comment about random searches at airports. Did you mean borders, or airports?) Try reading the entire Act. I did, and found some interesting stuff in there. Then go watch "Border Security". When a Canadian enters Canada it's acceptable for the government to say, "Show me all of your apples." It can even say, "Give me the bill of sale for those apples." That's inspecting goods. It's not acceptable for the government to say, "Show me all of your text messages, emails, pictures, and personal journals." That's a warrantless search. It is illegal, and it should remain illegal regardless of what good deeds a government bureaucrat might be able to do with that information. If the government wants to conduct a search like that, it needs to accuse you of a specific crime and set out the reasons why it believes getting those items will prove it. Any just government must assign different people who act at arms length from each other to make the request and to decide if the request is justified. (eg. Police, Prosecutor, and Judge) This is necessary in order to prevent any individual human agent acting with the power of the government from abusing that power. Just governments do not search everyone because some of them might be guilty. Just governments don't say, "Show me your apples. OK, that's fine. Now give me your passwords because you might be a pedophile and I need to make sure I can't find any evidence that you are." Just governments don't say, "Show me your journals, emails, and pictures, then and then we'll see if we can charge you with a crime." I wouldn't give up living under a just and fair government even if that meant we could catch all of the criminals... which of course we couldn't.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  Because it doesn't protect anyone.

That's a bullshit excuse border guards give to search electronic storage.

by Canada 12y ago

That's a bullshit excuse border guards give to search electronic storage.

cpncrunch 12y ago

Why is it a "bullshit excuse" if they do actually manage to catch many people by searching phones?

Karunamon 12y ago
It's a bullshit excuse because "protecting the children" are items #1 and #2 on the list of "flimsy justifications for surveillance overreach", right next to "preventing terrorism" at #3. I'm serious. Any time you hear those terms and the discussion is not about speed limits in a school zone, red flags should be going up in your mind. It's not about how many people they catch - even if they had a 100% success rate at nabbing every abuser that crossed the border, it's about civil liberties.
- cpncrunch 12y ago
  I was simply pointing out the reason for the searches. As it stands, the law currently lets them do these searches, and I was explaining the reasoning behind these searches (which should be pretty obvious to anyone who has watched those TV shows). As for why they want to search for pedophiles at airports: the reason is presumably because there is a serious problem of child sex tourism in certain countries (Thailand for example). You could use the same argument about guns or drugs -- why search people who they suspect are carrying guns or drugs? The reasoning is presumably that stopping these at the border prevents them from coming into the country. To be honest I don't have a problem with being searched at airports. IMO the small inconvenience is outweighed by the benefit of putting the occasional pedophile in jail, preventing diseases from fruit/meat entering our country, and criminals bringing machine guns into the country, etc. I guess from the downvotes and comments that a lot of HN posters have a different opinion.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Franklin, Benjamin By the way, the real cap'n crunch would be ashamed of the attitude you have expressed, as I'm sure you know.
    - cpncrunch 12y ago
      I think you should perhaps research what that quote actually means. Hint: it means pretty much the opposite of what you think it means.
      - mg1982 12y ago
        http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-said/ http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/07/what-ben-franklin-really-... Interesting, thanks!
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
MichaelGG 12y ago
Imagine how many more criminals we could catch if we could search their homes at will! Or listen in to every single conversation. Why stop there, perhaps make citizens check-in every 15 minutes with a quick video? This is one of the main points of having civil liberties.
Canada 12y ago
The fact of the matter is they don't. What they want to do is go fishing through your papers and they cynically use this catch all excuse when challenged. In Canada it isn't legal to arbitrarily search people even at the border. Reasonable cause is necessary: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-52.6/page-64.html#h-76 http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-52.6/page-64.html#... There is both plenty of incentive and no consequences for conducting unlawful searches.
- cpncrunch 12y ago
  >The fact of the matter is they don't Do you have any references for that? From what I can see on programmes like Border Security, they do catch a lot of people this way, and they do always have reasonable grounds for the search. Also, how does that law allow random searches at airports (which are presumably legal)? Is there another law which permits those?
  - Canada 12y ago
    Shows like that are pure PR. Border guards aren't going to break the rules while they're on camera. And even if they did, the shows producers aren't likely to include it. Random searches are not legal in Canada. Border guards take advantage of the fact that nobody wants to look guilty by refusing to be searched. They exploit the public's ignorance of the law and use intimidation.
    - cpncrunch 12y ago
      Actually, it is legal in Canada for border officers to inspect any goods being carried across the border -- not even suspicion of illegal activity is needed. See section 99(1)a of the customs act. I don't think this would allow them to search your phone. However that may be permitted if they have reasonable suspicion.
      - Canada 12y ago
        There's a very important difference between inspecting the goods and searching your person and papers. (These details matter. Note your comment about random searches at airports. Did you mean borders, or airports?) Try reading the entire Act. I did, and found some interesting stuff in there. Then go watch "Border Security". When a Canadian enters Canada it's acceptable for the government to say, "Show me all of your apples." It can even say, "Give me the bill of sale for those apples." That's inspecting goods. It's not acceptable for the government to say, "Show me all of your text messages, emails, pictures, and personal journals." That's a warrantless search. It is illegal, and it should remain illegal regardless of what good deeds a government bureaucrat might be able to do with that information. If the government wants to conduct a search like that, it needs to accuse you of a specific crime and set out the reasons why it believes getting those items will prove it. Any just government must assign different people who act at arms length from each other to make the request and to decide if the request is justified. (eg. Police, Prosecutor, and Judge) This is necessary in order to prevent any individual human agent acting with the power of the government from abusing that power. Just governments do not search everyone because some of them might be guilty. Just governments don't say, "Show me your apples. OK, that's fine. Now give me your passwords because you might be a pedophile and I need to make sure I can't find any evidence that you are." Just governments don't say, "Show me your journals, emails, and pictures, then and then we'll see if we can charge you with a crime." I wouldn't give up living under a just and fair government even if that meant we could catch all of the criminals... which of course we couldn't.
spacemanmatt 12y ago
Because it doesn't protect anyone.