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> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct.

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's organizers. An e-mail would do. But she took it to Twitter instead, so everyone can point at them. I think she was in the wrong in doing that, and they both ended up suffering from it. If there were a lesson to get from here, I'd say it would be "have you considered talking?". Or perhaps "do you really want to bring the Internet into our discussion?".

stfu 12y ago
Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?
- probably_wrong 12y ago
  Whether they should? I don't know. Maybe. Sexism in tech is a weird and hard problem, and if regulating private conversations helps solving it, then I'm cautiously willing to give it a try. Whether they do? Yes. From the CoC[1]: > Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for PyCon. > If a participant engages in behavior that violates this code of conduct, the conference organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender or expulsion from the conference with no refund. Presumably everyone was there under their own free will, so if they agreed to the CoC and then failed to respect it, well, that's not good. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - briandear 12y ago
    Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian language for conferences and have everyone in a tape delay so the offensive-content censors would have time to bleep it out. Reminds me of the swearing fines in that movie Demolition Man.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment. This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women. The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearly awful it doesn't mean he was fine to make those kind of comments. > So where's the line? Don't make "jokes" about dongles in a voice that can be overheard by anyone but the intended audience, and make sure you know those people well.
      - alextgordon 12y ago
        Conferences are likely to involve many people from social groups outside your own, with different views on what is acceptable and what is not. That's life...
- onion2k 12y ago
  If Hank had been making overtly racist comments in earshot of other people is it your opinion that those would be private things the other attendees should have ignored? Of course not. If someone a row in front of you can hear the joke while the speaker is on stage then what you are saying is public, not private, so it definitely falls under the code of conduct. The content of what's being said is irrelevant, be it a joke about big dongles or a racist remark.
- mcphage 12y ago
  > what two friends are saying to each other privately By "privately", you mean, "in a room with 800 other people", right?
akerl_ 12y ago
Reporting instances of sexism is perfectly fine. Reporting a joke that is sexual and claiming it's sexism is not fine. Their joke didn't involve women, reference women, reference men being better than women, reference superiority or inferiority of anyone, or as far as I can tell even imply any other jokes that would do those things.
facepalm 12y ago
Making jokes about dongles is not even sexism. Having a penis is not sexism either. Unless the code of conduct is "don't offend anybody", which of course would be impossible to adhere to.
Lawtonfogle 12y ago
>there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct Did he? It sounds like there was a report he did violate it, they investigated, but upon explanation they weren't reprimanded. I took this to be that someone falsely accused them, and under investigation it was determined that the incident was actually harmless.

stfu 12y ago

Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?

probably_wrong 12y ago
Whether they should? I don't know. Maybe. Sexism in tech is a weird and hard problem, and if regulating private conversations helps solving it, then I'm cautiously willing to give it a try. Whether they do? Yes. From the CoC[1]: > Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for PyCon. > If a participant engages in behavior that violates this code of conduct, the conference organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender or expulsion from the conference with no refund. Presumably everyone was there under their own free will, so if they agreed to the CoC and then failed to respect it, well, that's not good. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- briandear 12y ago
  Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian language for conferences and have everyone in a tape delay so the offensive-content censors would have time to bleep it out. Reminds me of the swearing fines in that movie Demolition Man.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment. This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women. The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearly awful it doesn't mean he was fine to make those kind of comments. > So where's the line? Don't make "jokes" about dongles in a voice that can be overheard by anyone but the intended audience, and make sure you know those people well.
    - alextgordon 12y ago
      Conferences are likely to involve many people from social groups outside your own, with different views on what is acceptable and what is not. That's life...
onion2k 12y ago
If Hank had been making overtly racist comments in earshot of other people is it your opinion that those would be private things the other attendees should have ignored? Of course not. If someone a row in front of you can hear the joke while the speaker is on stage then what you are saying is public, not private, so it definitely falls under the code of conduct. The content of what's being said is irrelevant, be it a joke about big dongles or a racist remark.
mcphage 12y ago
> what two friends are saying to each other privately By "privately", you mean, "in a room with 800 other people", right?

akerl_ 12y ago

Reporting instances of sexism is perfectly fine. Reporting a joke that is sexual and claiming it's sexism is not fine. Their joke didn't involve women, reference women, reference men being better than women, reference superiority or inferiority of anyone, or as far as I can tell even imply any other jokes that would do those things.

facepalm 12y ago

Making jokes about dongles is not even sexism. Having a penis is not sexism either. Unless the code of conduct is "don't offend anybody", which of course would be impossible to adhere to.

Lawtonfogle 12y ago

>there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct Did he? It sounds like there was a report he did violate it, they investigated, but upon explanation they weren't reprimanded. I took this to be that someone falsely accused them, and under investigation it was determined that the incident was actually harmless.