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Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many peo

Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. In fact, he only expressed everything that had happened to him, and it just so happened that many people decided to stand up for him in what seems to be a situation of very, very poor judgement. On the other hand, great and naturally flowing writing by the author, really enjoyed swimming through the story!

maxerickson 12y ago
The problem was that many people went a lot further than standing up for Hank. (I thought her reaction was wrong, pretty much from the first step, but it wasn't something uninvolved people needed to pay much attention to either.)
- celticninja 12y ago
  But that was not Hank's fault or Hank's problem in all fairness.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I don't see how I've even suggested otherwise.
- josefresco 12y ago
  4chan behavior is well documented and not surprising in this case. Easily condemned, but I don't think it helps this discussion to be emotionally swayed by the reaction of such a group.
probably_wrong 12y ago
> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's organizers. An e-mail would do. But she took it to Twitter instead, so everyone can point at them. I think she was in the wrong in doing that, and they both ended up suffering from it. If there were a lesson to get from here, I'd say it would be "have you considered talking?". Or perhaps "do you really want to bring the Internet into our discussion?".
- stfu 12y ago
  Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?
  - probably_wrong 12y ago
    Whether they should? I don't know. Maybe. Sexism in tech is a weird and hard problem, and if regulating private conversations helps solving it, then I'm cautiously willing to give it a try. Whether they do? Yes. From the CoC[1]: > Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for PyCon. > If a participant engages in behavior that violates this code of conduct, the conference organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender or expulsion from the conference with no refund. Presumably everyone was there under their own free will, so if they agreed to the CoC and then failed to respect it, well, that's not good. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - briandear 12y ago
      Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian language for conferences and have everyone in a tape delay so the offensive-content censors would have time to bleep it out. Reminds me of the swearing fines in that movie Demolition Man.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        > In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment. This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women. The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearly awful it doesn't mean he was fine to make those kind of comments. > So where's the line? Don't make "jokes" about dongles in a voice that can be overheard by anyone but the intended audience, and make sure you know those people well.

maxerickson 12y ago

The problem was that many people went a lot further than standing up for Hank. (I thought her reaction was wrong, pretty much from the first step, but it wasn't something uninvolved people needed to pay much attention to either.)

celticninja 12y ago
But that was not Hank's fault or Hank's problem in all fairness.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I don't see how I've even suggested otherwise.
josefresco 12y ago
4chan behavior is well documented and not surprising in this case. Easily condemned, but I don't think it helps this discussion to be emotionally swayed by the reaction of such a group.

probably_wrong 12y ago

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's organizers. An e-mail would do. But she took it to Twitter instead, so everyone can point at them. I think she was in the wrong in doing that, and they both ended up suffering from it. If there were a lesson to get from here, I'd say it would be "have you considered talking?". Or perhaps "do you really want to bring the Internet into our discussion?".

stfu 12y ago
Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?
- probably_wrong 12y ago
  Whether they should? I don't know. Maybe. Sexism in tech is a weird and hard problem, and if regulating private conversations helps solving it, then I'm cautiously willing to give it a try. Whether they do? Yes. From the CoC[1]: > Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for PyCon. > If a participant engages in behavior that violates this code of conduct, the conference organizers may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender or expulsion from the conference with no refund. Presumably everyone was there under their own free will, so if they agreed to the CoC and then failed to respect it, well, that's not good. [1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - briandear 12y ago
    Define offensive. if I think cat photos are offensive would I be in my rights to kick someone out of a conference? I'm not sure what the "offense" was. If someone says "damn," that might be offensive to my dad, but to my coworkers that might be completely fine. In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. So where's the line? Perhaps we could create some new Orwellian language for conferences and have everyone in a tape delay so the offensive-content censors would have time to bleep it out. Reminds me of the swearing fines in that movie Demolition Man.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > In this case, there was nothing anti-women or racist that any reasonable person would infer. No, that's wrong. There are plenty of legal cases where sexual jokes were found to be creating a hostile work environment. This conference had rules about conduct because of the problem of men making sexual comments to women. The comment "Hank" made was not appropriate. Just because the reaction and consequences were clearly awful it doesn't mean he was fine to make those kind of comments. > So where's the line? Don't make "jokes" about dongles in a voice that can be overheard by anyone but the intended audience, and make sure you know those people well.