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> Do you call PG out and assume he is full of shit and doesn't know what he is talking about? Absolutely. I think Paul Graham said silly things about hacking a

by n72 12y ago

> Do you call PG out and assume he is full of shit and doesn't know what he is talking about? Absolutely. I think Paul Graham said silly things about hacking and painting. I think Paul Graham is utterly wrong about philosophy being just a confusion over meaning. I think Paul Graham at time tends to riff on things he just doesn't know much about. > outright dismissed as utterly full of shit smacks of, among other things, sexism. Please show me where she's being "outright dismissed." Please show me how I could make the argument I made without it being interpreted by you as sexist. Or is the mere fact that I made it about a woman proof of its sexist nature?

Mz 12y ago
Or is the mere fact that I made it about a woman proof of its sexist nature? No, it is not the mere fact that it is about a woman. It is the context here and the framing of the comments. It is the fact that, on the whole, this piece is not being talked about with the kind of respect with which her spouse's writing gets treated here. It is the fact that you and others are not asking how she knows or what it would take to prove it or any other questions that come from a place of "Well, this very powerful, intelligent, successful person has said something I do not understand and I would like to understand it better and learn from it." No, the comments here are mostly dismissive of the very idea that anyone can be any good at this or can objectively know they are far better than average. Most men get asked to show their work. Women get told they are full of shit. There is a difference between the two, a very big difference, and that difference boils down to fundamental respect. It is in part a contextual thing that is very hard to prove bias on, but if you experience it, you eventually know that there are just no circumstances under which you will be taken seriously and there will always be some excuse and some plausible explanation why no one takes you seriously or respects you while they claim it is unrelated to your gender. I will just leave this link here on the off-chance that you genuinely would like to understand what I am trying to convey: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-creepiness-of-silence-of-lambs.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-creepine...
- paul 12y ago
  I believe there is truth to what you say. It's very difficult to prove of course, but I've definitely noticed that certain founders seem to face a lot more skepticism than others. The great part about this business is that I can make money by investing in those that others are missing :)
  - Mz 12y ago
    Unless they are so discouraged and boo-ed down that they give up, don't bother, can't get what they need to make it work and so on. In which case, you are leaving money on the table by allowing HN to remain too much of a Boy Zone.
    - graeme 12y ago
      Realistically, what could be done about it? Serious question. I had the same reaction as you to these comments. It seemed like Jessica was getting a lot of skepticism relative to what PG or one of the male partners would have received from similar claims. But I don't know how I would change things. Any suggestions? Note: I'm truly baffled that many commentors here seem to think that judging character is i. impossible to do correctly, ii. undesirable, iii. skill in judging character is intrinsically impossible to evaluate
      - Mz 12y ago
        It is something I have been working on for a long time. I think things are getting better on HN. I think my comments here were relatively well-received. There was a time when my experience of HN was pretty negative. If you are male, some things that you can do include: Engage women in discussion about ideas and a) don't gush at them just because it's a woman speaking up b) don't give them condescending pats on the head of "encouragement" as if they would be more successful if only their girlie little feelings are helped to be more positive c) and invite them to push back. I previously had a blog post about "shoving matches." I am not currently finding it, which may mean it was not republished when my blog was moved, likely due to combination of it probably wasn't that well written and I am frequently busy with other things. In a nutshell, think of the scene in "Remember the Titans" where the white team captain gets into a shoving match with a black team member. Initially, the black team member is afraid to push back. That's the kind of thing that could end badly in the racist environment in which they live. But the team captain shoves again and invites him to shove back. He does finally shove back, they engage in a friendly shoving match, and that is the moment where the team becomes a team and race stops mattering. This can be done to a woman. It is possible to encourage her to argue with you in public in a way that is not dismissive of her. It is possible to invite women to stand their ground and defend their ideas. And that's one of the big things that needs to happen on HN.

by n72 12y ago

Mz 12y ago

Or is the mere fact that I made it about a woman proof of its sexist nature? No, it is not the mere fact that it is about a woman. It is the context here and the framing of the comments. It is the fact that, on the whole, this piece is not being talked about with the kind of respect with which her spouse's writing gets treated here. It is the fact that you and others are not asking how she knows or what it would take to prove it or any other questions that come from a place of "Well, this very powerful, intelligent, successful person has said something I do not understand and I would like to understand it better and learn from it." No, the comments here are mostly dismissive of the very idea that anyone can be any good at this or can objectively know they are far better than average. Most men get asked to show their work. Women get told they are full of shit. There is a difference between the two, a very big difference, and that difference boils down to fundamental respect. It is in part a contextual thing that is very hard to prove bias on, but if you experience it, you eventually know that there are just no circumstances under which you will be taken seriously and there will always be some excuse and some plausible explanation why no one takes you seriously or respects you while they claim it is unrelated to your gender. I will just leave this link here on the off-chance that you genuinely would like to understand what I am trying to convey: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-creepiness-of-silence-of-lambs.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-creepine...

paul 12y ago
I believe there is truth to what you say. It's very difficult to prove of course, but I've definitely noticed that certain founders seem to face a lot more skepticism than others. The great part about this business is that I can make money by investing in those that others are missing :)
- Mz 12y ago
  Unless they are so discouraged and boo-ed down that they give up, don't bother, can't get what they need to make it work and so on. In which case, you are leaving money on the table by allowing HN to remain too much of a Boy Zone.
  - graeme 12y ago
    Realistically, what could be done about it? Serious question. I had the same reaction as you to these comments. It seemed like Jessica was getting a lot of skepticism relative to what PG or one of the male partners would have received from similar claims. But I don't know how I would change things. Any suggestions? Note: I'm truly baffled that many commentors here seem to think that judging character is i. impossible to do correctly, ii. undesirable, iii. skill in judging character is intrinsically impossible to evaluate
    - Mz 12y ago
      It is something I have been working on for a long time. I think things are getting better on HN. I think my comments here were relatively well-received. There was a time when my experience of HN was pretty negative. If you are male, some things that you can do include: Engage women in discussion about ideas and a) don't gush at them just because it's a woman speaking up b) don't give them condescending pats on the head of "encouragement" as if they would be more successful if only their girlie little feelings are helped to be more positive c) and invite them to push back. I previously had a blog post about "shoving matches." I am not currently finding it, which may mean it was not republished when my blog was moved, likely due to combination of it probably wasn't that well written and I am frequently busy with other things. In a nutshell, think of the scene in "Remember the Titans" where the white team captain gets into a shoving match with a black team member. Initially, the black team member is afraid to push back. That's the kind of thing that could end badly in the racist environment in which they live. But the team captain shoves again and invites him to shove back. He does finally shove back, they engage in a friendly shoving match, and that is the moment where the team becomes a team and race stops mattering. This can be done to a woman. It is possible to encourage her to argue with you in public in a way that is not dismissive of her. It is possible to invite women to stand their ground and defend their ideas. And that's one of the big things that needs to happen on HN.