4 ms·

> Baltic states have around 20% (?) of their population non-resident: moved to other schengen states. I actually didn't think of it from that angle. I guess i

by mortehu 12y ago

> Baltic states have around 20% (?) of their population non-resident: moved to other schengen states. I actually didn't think of it from that angle. I guess it could be argued that poor countries shouldn't enter reciprocal open border agreements with rich countries, out of their own self-interest. I'm guessing the movement of these Baltic people mostly benefited their new host nations, though?

guard-of-terra 12y ago
People from baltics are well-educated and exhibit no cultural gap, so I believe they mostly benefit their host nations. But it is not granted for every pair of countries. Poor countries often only have bad choices. Either you leak population but get money from abroad workers, soften tension and enjoy capital movement - or you try to restrain population, get even poorer (less eager capital, same amount of export-able work for less people), face grief and political instability. In that respect you can compare Baltics with Ukraine.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Well, in Baltic states, there is the cultural gap between Russians and ethnic Estonians, Latvians and Litthuanians in each of the states, respectively. It is not a small one. There are still lots of people who are resident in e.g. Estonia, and were born there, but have no citizenship because they do not (can not, will not) pass the citizenship language test. The difference to Ukraine is that the Baltic nations grew strong enough already during the final decades of Soviet Union, and they still remembered their pre-war independence. In 1959, the population of Estonia was roughly the same as in 1939. The difference was that almost a third had been replaced by Russians. Ethnic Estonians had been first purged by USSR in 1939-1941, then killed by war going back and forth over the country in 1941-1944, and then purged again by Stalin's further repressions until 1950's, by moving people to camps all over the Gulag and killing them there. After that, there was a bit of dual existence, and "Druzhby narodov nadozhnyy oplot!" was rather a less reliable bulwark of friendship than the song was saying. Then, in 1991, came the singing revolution. After that, many Estonians have migrated to Finland, Sweden, Germany, and other countries, but they send money back home. In exchange, Estonians get guest workers from Russia or Belarus in the same way. Still, it's not that easy for Estonians, as for instance trained doctors and nurses often leave the country after their training. Ukraine, in contrast, was run by various Russian cronies - the Orange revolution could not build nation -and has had endemic corruption all the time. What you say about poor nations having bad choices is right as you either leak population or you build a police state that tries to restrain population. Education and eradication of corruption will help, but it's very slow work. I think the Baltic states are showing the way there.
anon4 12y ago
There is a sizeable brain drain, but it's not really that large, especially when you consider that you can get half of an American salary in an outsourcing firm while living somewhere where cost of living is a fifth of what it's in America (numbers out of my ass, but you get the idea). The poor nation also gets oversea investors who want to have things done cheaply and strong labor laws ensure you won't have the Chinese situation of people working as more or less slaves. Of course that doesn't hold true for all occupations. Doctors being a sore point, for one - they can't make what they would abroad mostly because most of the people are still paid miserable wages and won't be able to afford healthcare which would pay really high salaries to doctors.
- Heyr 12y ago
  At least in the case of Baltics cost of living is not a fifth of what it is in the US. In fact it could even be considered similar. For some reason countries like Spain and Germany have CHEAPER cost of living for day to day things (except rent). This is an interesting thread about people being surprised about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eesti/comments/2xqd01/can_someone_explain_the_prices_in_estonia/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Eesti/comments/2xqd01/can_someone_e... Quality of life is just worse in those regions. It's not very much, but still noticeable. One of the reasons why this is the case is just income being lower for equivalent work. Richer countries just tend to have the better companies with more reach.

by mortehu 12y ago

guard-of-terra 12y ago

People from baltics are well-educated and exhibit no cultural gap, so I believe they mostly benefit their host nations. But it is not granted for every pair of countries. Poor countries often only have bad choices. Either you leak population but get money from abroad workers, soften tension and enjoy capital movement - or you try to restrain population, get even poorer (less eager capital, same amount of export-able work for less people), face grief and political instability. In that respect you can compare Baltics with Ukraine.

ptaipale 12y ago
Well, in Baltic states, there is the cultural gap between Russians and ethnic Estonians, Latvians and Litthuanians in each of the states, respectively. It is not a small one. There are still lots of people who are resident in e.g. Estonia, and were born there, but have no citizenship because they do not (can not, will not) pass the citizenship language test. The difference to Ukraine is that the Baltic nations grew strong enough already during the final decades of Soviet Union, and they still remembered their pre-war independence. In 1959, the population of Estonia was roughly the same as in 1939. The difference was that almost a third had been replaced by Russians. Ethnic Estonians had been first purged by USSR in 1939-1941, then killed by war going back and forth over the country in 1941-1944, and then purged again by Stalin's further repressions until 1950's, by moving people to camps all over the Gulag and killing them there. After that, there was a bit of dual existence, and "Druzhby narodov nadozhnyy oplot!" was rather a less reliable bulwark of friendship than the song was saying. Then, in 1991, came the singing revolution. After that, many Estonians have migrated to Finland, Sweden, Germany, and other countries, but they send money back home. In exchange, Estonians get guest workers from Russia or Belarus in the same way. Still, it's not that easy for Estonians, as for instance trained doctors and nurses often leave the country after their training. Ukraine, in contrast, was run by various Russian cronies - the Orange revolution could not build nation -and has had endemic corruption all the time. What you say about poor nations having bad choices is right as you either leak population or you build a police state that tries to restrain population. Education and eradication of corruption will help, but it's very slow work. I think the Baltic states are showing the way there.

anon4 12y ago

There is a sizeable brain drain, but it's not really that large, especially when you consider that you can get half of an American salary in an outsourcing firm while living somewhere where cost of living is a fifth of what it's in America (numbers out of my ass, but you get the idea). The poor nation also gets oversea investors who want to have things done cheaply and strong labor laws ensure you won't have the Chinese situation of people working as more or less slaves. Of course that doesn't hold true for all occupations. Doctors being a sore point, for one - they can't make what they would abroad mostly because most of the people are still paid miserable wages and won't be able to afford healthcare which would pay really high salaries to doctors.

Heyr 12y ago
At least in the case of Baltics cost of living is not a fifth of what it is in the US. In fact it could even be considered similar. For some reason countries like Spain and Germany have CHEAPER cost of living for day to day things (except rent). This is an interesting thread about people being surprised about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eesti/comments/2xqd01/can_someone_explain_the_prices_in_estonia/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Eesti/comments/2xqd01/can_someone_e... Quality of life is just worse in those regions. It's not very much, but still noticeable. One of the reasons why this is the case is just income being lower for equivalent work. Richer countries just tend to have the better companies with more reach.