6 ms·

I think the interesting question here is to what extent are the personnel responsible for building this comm infrastructure kidnapped/enslaved/coerced versus be

by ufmace 12y ago

I think the interesting question here is to what extent are the personnel responsible for building this comm infrastructure kidnapped/enslaved/coerced versus being there mostly voluntarily. There's some merit to the argument that it's much riskier and probably more expensive for the cartels to kidnap and hold these people than to pay them enough to work voluntarily. The main argument against that is how many people have disappeared with no contact with their families, and that the families aren't getting any money. But then, we don't know where these people are, what they're doing, and what degree, if any, of coercion is being applied. The wild card is the Governments' unwillingness to even acknowledge the problem. That suggests that it embarrasses them. What's more embarrassing to the government, though? That the cartels might be powerful enough to kidnap people at will all over their country? Doesn't sound particularly newsworthy or worthy of suppression, considering what else is going on there. How about the extent to which upper-middle class educated people are willingly working with the cartels to build high-end infrastructure? I could see that being very embarrassing indeed. It makes it seem like the cartels are inching closer to being the legitimate government of major parts of the country. That sounds much more like something worth denying and suppressing. I have no idea if there's any truth to it, but the motives seem to line up in that direction.

smacktoward 12y ago
In the case of the cartels there's varying degrees of "voluntarily." Mexican and Colombian cartels have long been able to coerce "voluntary" cooperation from people they need by posing them a choice: plata o plomo, "silver or lead." In other words, you can cooperate with the cartel and be rewarded with cash, or not cooperate and be "rewarded" with bullets. It's your choice! But it's not much of a choice, of course. What's interesting here (to me, anyway) is the need to physically kidnap and hold the person, rather than just coercing the behavior the cartels want via the plata o plomo approach. The cartels certainly have enough plata to hire talent, if it's needed; and once hired, the threat of the plomo should keep them quiet, right? So what would the cartel gain by enslaving the person? I'm not sure.
- S4M 12y ago
  > So what would the cartel gain by enslaving the person? I'm not sure. My guess is that they are afraid that this person goes to speak, or gets contacted by the police and install a backdoor in the cartel's system. Maybe the heads of the cartels, not knowing how IT works, are super paranoid about it and want to keep their IT "personnel" at hand constantly.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- walshemj 12y ago
  Killed him after his work was done might be one option I bet that a Cartels HR dept is not soft and fluffy like Dogbert. Or they thought he was a FED and killed him a Bit like the poor sod who was working as a freelancer in one of the former soviet states a few years ago - luckily I didn't have to deal with that case when I worked for BT but I do know the senior manger who was the contact with the FO during that time.
- IndianAstronaut 12y ago
  > plata o plomo, "silver or lead." Cartels have stopped this. Now there is simply no reward. It is simply just lead. This is especially true with the ultra-violent Zetas cartel where you pay them and do their bidding so that they don't kill you. The brutality of the Zetas knows no end. All this just a few hours drive from the US. https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-demolished-a-town-incinerated-hundreds-of-victims-and-got-away-with-it https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-demolishe...
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    But why are they so uncivilized? The main mission, supplying medicines in the face of oppressive government regulations, is a noble one, one that people can get behind. Just look how the alcohol gangsters of the 20s are idolized. If they were focused on the core mission of delivering and only killing people as needed, they'd probably have a stack of resumes metres deep. I'm sure Silk Road had its pick of candidates if it needed to hire for a sysadmin position. And you can always remind people you'll kill their families if they snitch. Is it just a shitty cultural thing? Or is there an actual plan behind being savages and basically making the entire world think they're just untamed animals?
dethstar 12y ago
There's everything related to narcocultura, with music and images and what not that seem to worship drug lords power, that certainly seems to influence some people and wishing they could do/become that. From my personal anecdotal experience, that people are usually low-middle class and with no higher education. I'm not sure if it's government embarrassment what makes them unwilling to acknowledge the problem. It is well known here that most of the time they work together. [0][1] (Two different governors) [0] http://www.sinembargo.mx/03-07-2014/1046494 http://www.sinembargo.mx/03-07-2014/1046494 : title translation DEA links Tamaulipas former governor to Zetas [1] http://www.fbi.gov/sanantonio/press-releases/2013/former-governor-of-state-of-tamaulipas-mexico-indicted-in-the-southern-district-of-texas http://www.fbi.gov/sanantonio/press-releases/2013/former-gov...
duaneb 12y ago
From my understanding, the Government's loyalty to the people vs to the cartels is not entirely clear.
whyaduck 12y ago
I wonder if this is actually an attempt to extort the telecom companies? "Pay up or we will kill the people working for you."
chongli 12y ago
The main argument against that is how many people have disappeared with no contact with their families, and that the families aren't getting any money. Wouldn't those families who are getting money be keeping quiet? As for the people who disappeared without a trace, perhaps the cartels force them to train their members on the basics of their job before eliminating them?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jrochkind1 12y ago
> The wild card is the Governments' unwillingness to even acknowledge the problem. I think you misunderstand that the government and the cartels are often the same people.

by ufmace 12y ago

smacktoward 12y ago

In the case of the cartels there's varying degrees of "voluntarily." Mexican and Colombian cartels have long been able to coerce "voluntary" cooperation from people they need by posing them a choice: plata o plomo, "silver or lead." In other words, you can cooperate with the cartel and be rewarded with cash, or not cooperate and be "rewarded" with bullets. It's your choice! But it's not much of a choice, of course. What's interesting here (to me, anyway) is the need to physically kidnap and hold the person, rather than just coercing the behavior the cartels want via the plata o plomo approach. The cartels certainly have enough plata to hire talent, if it's needed; and once hired, the threat of the plomo should keep them quiet, right? So what would the cartel gain by enslaving the person? I'm not sure.

S4M 12y ago
> So what would the cartel gain by enslaving the person? I'm not sure. My guess is that they are afraid that this person goes to speak, or gets contacted by the police and install a backdoor in the cartel's system. Maybe the heads of the cartels, not knowing how IT works, are super paranoid about it and want to keep their IT "personnel" at hand constantly.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
walshemj 12y ago
Killed him after his work was done might be one option I bet that a Cartels HR dept is not soft and fluffy like Dogbert. Or they thought he was a FED and killed him a Bit like the poor sod who was working as a freelancer in one of the former soviet states a few years ago - luckily I didn't have to deal with that case when I worked for BT but I do know the senior manger who was the contact with the FO during that time.
IndianAstronaut 12y ago
> plata o plomo, "silver or lead." Cartels have stopped this. Now there is simply no reward. It is simply just lead. This is especially true with the ultra-violent Zetas cartel where you pay them and do their bidding so that they don't kill you. The brutality of the Zetas knows no end. All this just a few hours drive from the US. https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-demolished-a-town-incinerated-hundreds-of-victims-and-got-away-with-it https://news.vice.com/article/how-a-mexican-cartel-demolishe...
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  But why are they so uncivilized? The main mission, supplying medicines in the face of oppressive government regulations, is a noble one, one that people can get behind. Just look how the alcohol gangsters of the 20s are idolized. If they were focused on the core mission of delivering and only killing people as needed, they'd probably have a stack of resumes metres deep. I'm sure Silk Road had its pick of candidates if it needed to hire for a sysadmin position. And you can always remind people you'll kill their families if they snitch. Is it just a shitty cultural thing? Or is there an actual plan behind being savages and basically making the entire world think they're just untamed animals?

dethstar 12y ago

There's everything related to narcocultura, with music and images and what not that seem to worship drug lords power, that certainly seems to influence some people and wishing they could do/become that. From my personal anecdotal experience, that people are usually low-middle class and with no higher education. I'm not sure if it's government embarrassment what makes them unwilling to acknowledge the problem. It is well known here that most of the time they work together. [0][1] (Two different governors) [0] http://www.sinembargo.mx/03-07-2014/1046494 http://www.sinembargo.mx/03-07-2014/1046494 : title translation DEA links Tamaulipas former governor to Zetas [1] http://www.fbi.gov/sanantonio/press-releases/2013/former-governor-of-state-of-tamaulipas-mexico-indicted-in-the-southern-district-of-texas http://www.fbi.gov/sanantonio/press-releases/2013/former-gov...

duaneb 12y ago

From my understanding, the Government's loyalty to the people vs to the cartels is not entirely clear.

whyaduck 12y ago

I wonder if this is actually an attempt to extort the telecom companies? "Pay up or we will kill the people working for you."

chongli 12y ago

The main argument against that is how many people have disappeared with no contact with their families, and that the families aren't getting any money. Wouldn't those families who are getting money be keeping quiet? As for the people who disappeared without a trace, perhaps the cartels force them to train their members on the basics of their job before eliminating them?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jrochkind1 12y ago

> The wild card is the Governments' unwillingness to even acknowledge the problem. I think you misunderstand that the government and the cartels are often the same people.