6 ms·

Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... At least I'm not living of off strutting around in my park telling my gardener what to

by MrDosu 12y ago

Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... At least I'm not living of off strutting around in my park telling my gardener what to do while stroking a white cat. I don't have employees in my factory solely working for me generating my income while I twiddle my thumbs. I'm actually sitting on a computer working for money every day, so: working class.

jey 12y ago
In the US, we distinguish between the "working class" and the "professional class", with programmers falling into the latter group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#The_professional.2Fmanagerial_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#The_prof...
- ripb 12y ago
  In the UK it's basically if you work for wages and/or in low skilled or manual labour.
  - mattnewport 12y ago
    Working for wages is not enough to qualify: doctor, university professor, airline pilot, solicitor... All traditionally firmly middle class professions despite working for a living.
    - ripb 12y ago
      Wages vs salary
      - mattmanser 12y ago
        Huh? I have worked in a vast multitude of jobs, some manual, some temp office, some salaried, some self-employed, some company director. Never in the UK have I ever heard of people making a distinction between a Wage and a Salary. They're the same thing. Middle class means something completely different than the definition you're defending. Skilled office workers are firmly in the UK middle class (despite my Thatcher hating friend's assertion that he's not). It might be argued that unskilled office workers, like call centres, are now working class jobs.
        zem 12y ago
        the distinction, in american english, is that a wage is a per-hour thing, whereas a salary is paid for a period of employment (usually a fortnight or a month), independent of the time you actually spent working within that period.
        mattmanser 12y ago
        But we weren't talking about America, we were talking about the UK.
    - zaccus 12y ago
      Traditionally, middle class has always meant that you own your own business. A hot dog vendor who owns their own cart is middle class. A doctor who works for a hospital is not. It has nothing to do with income or prestige.
      - mattnewport 12y ago
        We're talking about the UK here, I've never heard that definition in the UK and any definition of middle class that excludes doctors in the UK seems way out of line with how the term is generally used in my experience.
  - duncanawoods 12y ago
    @mattnewport Wages vs. salaried worker i.e. being paid weekly, possibly cash in hand for hours worked vs. a regular fixed monthly bank payment based on an annual salary.
WalterSear 12y ago
That's not what working class means, though.
- tormeh 12y ago
  In the dichotomy between workers and capitalists it does. Though I doubt that's what was meant.
  - bradleyjg 12y ago
    Marxist.org has this definition (https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm): Petty-bourgeois ... 2) Also refers to the growing group of workers whose function is management of the bourgeois apparatus. These workers do not produce commodities, but instead manage the production, distribution, and/or exchange of commodities and/or services owned by their bourgeois employers. While these workers are a part of the working class because they receive a wage and their livelihood is dependent on that wage, they are separated from working class consciousness because they have day-to-day control, but not ownership, over the means of production, distribution, and exchange.
    - tormeh 12y ago
      That describes managers, maybe programmers writing internal software if you're really stretching it. Thanks for the definition though.
jnbiche 12y ago
> even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... And I hate to break to it you Google and Facebook employees, but your salary ain't that great when you factor in cost-of-living. There are many, many thousands of devs across America making much more than you once you account for cost-of-living (and you should). But between the proven wage suppression, ageism, and now this passing meme that somehow making $100,000 in the most expensive place to live in the U.S. makes you part of the global elite, I have little hope that you all will wake up and demand fair compensation.
- usaar333 12y ago
  This really depends on where you are in life. Cost of living calculations tend to not work well with individual preferences and situations. In this case, it depends on how much living space desired. Generally speaking, the premium a single programmer makes for living in the Silicon Valley makes it worth being there. If said programmer is happy living with roommates, all the more so. However, the premium must be higher for someone with dependents due to the desire to have more living space.
  - jnbiche 12y ago
    > However, the premium must be higher for someone with dependents due to the desire to have more living space It has virtually nothing to do living space and everything to do with schools. To live in an area with decent schools, you pay a huge rent for even small homes or apartments. But I give you credit, you're the only one who responded who even considered the cost of dependents, which makes a massive difference.
- chrismarlow9 12y ago
  A few things you're missing: The perks. If my company feeds me and provides transportation stipend my only bills are rent, utils, and fun. Utils are the same as just about anywhere else in my experience. The rent is the only killer. You're also looking at it the wrong way. Many of us don't plan on staying here. Yes our savings are very small in comparison to cost of living while we're here. It's when we leave that our money becomes very valuable. Knowing the ratio of your savings per month(in the bay area) vs cost of living where you want to be (somewhere cheap) can be very motivating to keep you here (my ratio is 4:1 , so every month I'm here I save enough money to live 4 months at the place I plan to live). It's sacrificing a few years of insane living cost to have a cushion that allows you a comfortable life after the craziness as well as a resume that looks outstanding. There's also the possibility your startup sells, but I can't claim that as a valley only perk because that can obviously happen anywhere, but I think you're a bit more likely to have it happen in the bay area. You also meet a great deal of people and make a great deal of friends that love the same things you love all the way down to a specific framework (there are no Flask meetups in milwaukee). You also meet lots of people who introduce you to things you never knew you would love, which is often MORE fun. All that being said, I agree that there are more efficient places to live where you could save more, and there are companies outside of the bay area doing all of the above things, but the luck factor there grows as you get away from the valley because there are fewer positions.
ripb 12y ago
>Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... No, we're not. We're the down trodden, continually squeezed middle or upper middle class depending on the cost of living where you are.
- randomdata 12y ago
  Depends on the individual and how they accrue their income. Someone with a six figure income, which includes investment income and income from selling their time, would fall under middle class but someone who makes that six figures from working alone would qualify as working class. It is not the amount that matters here, it is how that amount is generated.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  You're working class if you are renting your labor out to a capital owner to produce your income. You're middle class if you are applying your own labor to capital you own to produce your income. You're capitalist class if you are renting other people's labor to apply to capital you own to produce your income. (These aren't discrete categories; they might be better read with "if you are" replaced with "to the extent you are".)
mason240 12y ago
By far the biggest thing that surprised me after entering into the CS field 3 years ago is that being a programming just like a white collar version of being an electrician or plummer. Looking at the from the outside it seems like a career with a lot more power there really is.
- Dewie 12y ago
  "Just". What is "just" about being an electrician? Is it less than being a more conventional white collar worker, like some kind of administrator or manager?
  - mason240 12y ago
    I meant "just like," not "just" in the sense you mean.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      I'll admit I jumped the gun on that one.
      - mason240 12y ago
        np
TheCoelacanth 12y ago
If your definition of working class is anyone who works for a living, then you are using a very unconventional definition. Using conventional definitions, the "middle class" consists entirely of people who work for a living. The factor distinguishing them from the working class being that they have significant disposable income.

by MrDosu 12y ago

jey 12y ago

In the US, we distinguish between the "working class" and the "professional class", with programmers falling into the latter group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#The_professional.2Fmanagerial_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class#The_prof...

ripb 12y ago
In the UK it's basically if you work for wages and/or in low skilled or manual labour.
- mattnewport 12y ago
  Working for wages is not enough to qualify: doctor, university professor, airline pilot, solicitor... All traditionally firmly middle class professions despite working for a living.
  - ripb 12y ago
    Wages vs salary
    - mattmanser 12y ago
      Huh? I have worked in a vast multitude of jobs, some manual, some temp office, some salaried, some self-employed, some company director. Never in the UK have I ever heard of people making a distinction between a Wage and a Salary. They're the same thing. Middle class means something completely different than the definition you're defending. Skilled office workers are firmly in the UK middle class (despite my Thatcher hating friend's assertion that he's not). It might be argued that unskilled office workers, like call centres, are now working class jobs.
      - zem 12y ago
        the distinction, in american english, is that a wage is a per-hour thing, whereas a salary is paid for a period of employment (usually a fortnight or a month), independent of the time you actually spent working within that period.
        mattmanser 12y ago
        But we weren't talking about America, we were talking about the UK.
  - zaccus 12y ago
    Traditionally, middle class has always meant that you own your own business. A hot dog vendor who owns their own cart is middle class. A doctor who works for a hospital is not. It has nothing to do with income or prestige.
    - mattnewport 12y ago
      We're talking about the UK here, I've never heard that definition in the UK and any definition of middle class that excludes doctors in the UK seems way out of line with how the term is generally used in my experience.
- duncanawoods 12y ago
  @mattnewport Wages vs. salaried worker i.e. being paid weekly, possibly cash in hand for hours worked vs. a regular fixed monthly bank payment based on an annual salary.

WalterSear 12y ago

That's not what working class means, though.

tormeh 12y ago
In the dichotomy between workers and capitalists it does. Though I doubt that's what was meant.
- bradleyjg 12y ago
  Marxist.org has this definition (https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/p/e.htm): Petty-bourgeois ... 2) Also refers to the growing group of workers whose function is management of the bourgeois apparatus. These workers do not produce commodities, but instead manage the production, distribution, and/or exchange of commodities and/or services owned by their bourgeois employers. While these workers are a part of the working class because they receive a wage and their livelihood is dependent on that wage, they are separated from working class consciousness because they have day-to-day control, but not ownership, over the means of production, distribution, and exchange.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    That describes managers, maybe programmers writing internal software if you're really stretching it. Thanks for the definition though.

jnbiche 12y ago

> even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... And I hate to break to it you Google and Facebook employees, but your salary ain't that great when you factor in cost-of-living. There are many, many thousands of devs across America making much more than you once you account for cost-of-living (and you should). But between the proven wage suppression, ageism, and now this passing meme that somehow making $100,000 in the most expensive place to live in the U.S. makes you part of the global elite, I have little hope that you all will wake up and demand fair compensation.

usaar333 12y ago
This really depends on where you are in life. Cost of living calculations tend to not work well with individual preferences and situations. In this case, it depends on how much living space desired. Generally speaking, the premium a single programmer makes for living in the Silicon Valley makes it worth being there. If said programmer is happy living with roommates, all the more so. However, the premium must be higher for someone with dependents due to the desire to have more living space.
- jnbiche 12y ago
  > However, the premium must be higher for someone with dependents due to the desire to have more living space It has virtually nothing to do living space and everything to do with schools. To live in an area with decent schools, you pay a huge rent for even small homes or apartments. But I give you credit, you're the only one who responded who even considered the cost of dependents, which makes a massive difference.
chrismarlow9 12y ago
A few things you're missing: The perks. If my company feeds me and provides transportation stipend my only bills are rent, utils, and fun. Utils are the same as just about anywhere else in my experience. The rent is the only killer. You're also looking at it the wrong way. Many of us don't plan on staying here. Yes our savings are very small in comparison to cost of living while we're here. It's when we leave that our money becomes very valuable. Knowing the ratio of your savings per month(in the bay area) vs cost of living where you want to be (somewhere cheap) can be very motivating to keep you here (my ratio is 4:1 , so every month I'm here I save enough money to live 4 months at the place I plan to live). It's sacrificing a few years of insane living cost to have a cushion that allows you a comfortable life after the craziness as well as a resume that looks outstanding. There's also the possibility your startup sells, but I can't claim that as a valley only perk because that can obviously happen anywhere, but I think you're a bit more likely to have it happen in the bay area. You also meet a great deal of people and make a great deal of friends that love the same things you love all the way down to a specific framework (there are no Flask meetups in milwaukee). You also meet lots of people who introduce you to things you never knew you would love, which is often MORE fun. All that being said, I agree that there are more efficient places to live where you could save more, and there are companies outside of the bay area doing all of the above things, but the luck factor there grows as you get away from the valley because there are fewer positions.

ripb 12y ago

>Btw we are working class too, even with those fancy 6 figure salaries... No, we're not. We're the down trodden, continually squeezed middle or upper middle class depending on the cost of living where you are.

randomdata 12y ago
Depends on the individual and how they accrue their income. Someone with a six figure income, which includes investment income and income from selling their time, would fall under middle class but someone who makes that six figures from working alone would qualify as working class. It is not the amount that matters here, it is how that amount is generated.
dragonwriter 12y ago
You're working class if you are renting your labor out to a capital owner to produce your income. You're middle class if you are applying your own labor to capital you own to produce your income. You're capitalist class if you are renting other people's labor to apply to capital you own to produce your income. (These aren't discrete categories; they might be better read with "if you are" replaced with "to the extent you are".)

mason240 12y ago

By far the biggest thing that surprised me after entering into the CS field 3 years ago is that being a programming just like a white collar version of being an electrician or plummer. Looking at the from the outside it seems like a career with a lot more power there really is.

Dewie 12y ago
"Just". What is "just" about being an electrician? Is it less than being a more conventional white collar worker, like some kind of administrator or manager?
- mason240 12y ago
  I meant "just like," not "just" in the sense you mean.
  - Dewie 12y ago
    I'll admit I jumped the gun on that one.
    - mason240 12y ago
      np

TheCoelacanth 12y ago

If your definition of working class is anyone who works for a living, then you are using a very unconventional definition. Using conventional definitions, the "middle class" consists entirely of people who work for a living. The factor distinguishing them from the working class being that they have significant disposable income.