5 ms·

I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I

I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I can see the value of a service such as this, or hiring your own lawyer for such cases - but for a few pages, five minutes of your time max, I just don't understand why so many people don't take the time to do so. One habit I've noticed in highly successful people is that they don't skim over bits of contracts (something I'm certainly guilty of); everything is read in detail. Does anyone have any anecdotal stories about successful people not taking 10 minutes to read a contract?

kyle_t 12y ago
I think there are two things at play here. 1. People perceive they don't have a choice. For example when you visit the doctor and you have to sign 12 different form/contracts. Most people believe they either sign them or don't get treated. 2. Fear of not understanding. They think they wouldn't understand they legalese even if they tried, so why even bother? Personally I don't blame them. I've read contracts that were so wordy and had so much legalese in them you'd be convinced the lawyers wrote them that way just so everyone involved would need to hire as many lawyers as possible simply to understand the darn thing.
- mootothemax 12y ago
  Thanks, those are some really interesting points! I still find both explanations a bit strange, though. I mean, wouldn't you at least like to know whether there are any restrictions on operating a company from your rented accommodation, even if you perceive that you don't have any choice in it? Or even just where you stand in general? I've also read some crazy legalese, but the thing is that I've read a heck of a lot more contracts that aren't legalese, and are very easy to understand. That leaves me wondering whether it's the common introductory bits (e.g. that state "THE TENANT is John Smith") that make people give up early?
- dredmorbius 12y ago
  I've walked out of businesses and/or offices on account of contract terms offered. There is that option.
  - jxm 12y ago
    Do you find that has a negative affect on your interactions with society? I can't imagine I could find a dentist or doctor that didn't have patient contractual obligations that I'd rather not agree to.
    - ashark 12y ago
      This is the problem, really. Don't like some terms in e.g. a mobile phone agreement? Take it or leave it. If you can't mobilize a mass of people to join you in rejecting it (you almost certainly can't, even if everyone hates the terms) your choice is to sign or go to another carrier (who will have the same problematic clauses in their contract). It'll hurt you more to be without a phone than it'll hurt the company not to take some special snowflake contract with you and get your tiny monthly payment in return. This is broadly true for loans, employment contracts, even doctors'/hospitals' contracts. For the overwhelming majority of business interactions most individuals participate in, they're the weaker party by a large margin. The notion that any substantial portion of contracts and business agreements are being freely made between equals is a fiction. Degrees of coercion are everywhere. Consider: it's common to require candidates for low-wage jobs to take a piss test. If they say no, someone else will agree because they need the money. The business can afford to be at 98% capacity (or just overwork their employees) for another couple of days—an individual may not be able to afford an income of $0.00 for another couple of days. The job is worth more to the candidate than the (particular) candidate is to the employer. Agree, but insist your potential manager show you the results of a piss test, too? Laughed out of the room. Equals? Not even close. Yadda yadda yadda this is the reason we have laws and don't just rely on contacts for everything. Also why unions exist (and why they must require membership, or else be largely ineffective) for employment issues specifically.
      - dredmorbius 12y ago
- CPLX 12y ago
  I think a grossly underutilized tactic is learning the art of quickly reading and red-lining a contract. Meaning you go through line by line and cross out particularly nasty lines or clauses, or make quick edits, and then initial next to the changes. Then sign at the bottom and hand it back. It's a habit I picked up from being in the music business for years, specifically being a concert promoter in my early 20's, where it's absolutely standard and normal practice to get a contract, red-line or change the stuff that doesn't apply or doesn't work for you, and return it. A good example would be striking language like "or for any other reason" at the end of a cancellation clause, or changing terms from perpetuity to 12 months, stuff like that. I've since done it at doctor's offices, when renting or buying things, when signing a simple freelancing contract, and many other contexts. It's much less confrontational, after all you do sign it and hand it back to them, putting the onus on them to deal with it if it's a problem. I recommend this approach highly if you're the type to care.
  - mahyarm 12y ago
    Don't they usually contain things like. "Any changes to this standard contract have to be approved by the CEO of LargeCorp in writing, otherwise it is invalid". And every change has to be initialed by has to be initialed by both parties.
    - jpatokal 12y ago
      In that case the entire contract is invalid and neither party is bound by it.
- SilasX 12y ago
  It's compounded with scummy tactics too. I've had one office email me a few forms to read and sign before the first office visit. Then, when I arrive two minutes before the appointment, they give me "just one more form", which is the arbitration agreement. Why couldn't that have been sent with the others? To pressure people into signing. Heck, I've even had medical doctors insist that I don't need to read something before signing it, just "get the gist" so they can go ahead with the appointment. Edit2: I almost think the world is designed around prodding you not to read the contract, by any means necessary, and then holding you personally responsible for it. Like, imagine parking garages. Try asking for a contract there and see what happens. Let's say you don't like the terms. Then what? They make everyone back out of the single lane entry while glaring at you? What about negotiating the terms? And good luck expecting them not to assert rights they can't legally get via contract.
littleweep 12y ago
Do you read the entire End User License Agreement before clicking 'Install'?
- hobs 12y ago
  Yes, I read every contract I sign my name to, or prevent myself from taking that action. I didnt start doing this until I was probably about 16 or 17 and realized the terms that people were tying themselves to, and often that said terms were legally binding. I have had employers and peers ridicule me when I take my time to always read everything in the contract, and I simply dont care, I will continue to do it anyway.
  - falcolas 12y ago
    Honest question, how do you get anything else done? I'm in the coffee shop for my morning hacker news dose, and I've already interacted with 2-3 contracts in the form of EULAs in the 20 minutes I've been here. If I took the time to read and comprehend each of those (while looking for changes in one I've read before, after all there's usually a "terms may change without prior notice" clause), I wouldn't have done anything else this morning.
    - hobs 12y ago
      Trying not to be hyperbolic since some people apparently didnt like my earlier comments, but it doesnt take that long to read most contracts unless they are purposefully misleading. Most EULAs have very little original content and dont require deep analysis. Considering those 2-3 things you signed up for or agreed to meant, even insignificantly, that you have given away something of your rights, I think it absolutely behooves anyone to spend the time to decide if those random websites are worth it if they make you agree to a EULA that is pages and pages long. The point about terms may change without prior notice is fair, I still struggle to regularly read the various changes to the TOS for things as simple as my credit card (which have way WAY shittier contracts to read compared to a EULA). Wile I have seen some services which could provide a diff and notify you on changes, I have decided it is better to not use abusive services instead of play a game of cat and mouse with them.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dalke 12y ago
Software license agreements. Huge numbers of successful people click "ok" and don't read the license at all.
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  Huge numbers? If I ever met anyone who said they read the full license for all software they use, I would call them a liar.
  - _acme 12y ago
    Re-read what you replied to.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      I was alluding to 'huge numbers' being an understatement.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    Stallman
    - dalke 12y ago
      Lawtonfogle changed the original statement regarding reading a contract that required an affirmation to the more nebulous "the full license for all software they use." One does not require a software license in order to use it. An elevator may be controlled by software, without having to sign an EULA. I have seen Stallman using a network connection where the router ran a non-free OS and where he did not sign a license agreement in order to use it.
      - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
        >Lawtonfogle changed the original statement regarding reading a contract that required an affirmation to the more nebulous "the full license for all software they use." TBH, I was actually meaning just the software that you have to click agree to or that has the 'by signing up with an account, you agree...'. I may not have worded it fully accurate for my intention, and if so I apologize for the confusion.
GavinMcG 12y ago
Judge Richard Posner claims that he didn't read the contract for his home equity loan: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-lawyers-actaully-read-boilerplate-contracts-judge-richard-posner-doesnt-do-you/ http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-lawyers-actaully-read-boil...
rondon2 12y ago
I was given a non employee poaching contract to sign when I gave my notice at BIGCORP. It had some vague language like "I will not attempt to contact any BIGCORP employees with information about other positions". I gave it back to the manager at the exit interview unsigned and said nice try. I guess they are just hoping someone doesn't read it.
rprospero 12y ago
Since you wanted anecdotal stories, I've known multiple relatively successful people (not billionaires, but millionaires who moved in high powered social circles) who didn't read the contracts for their rental cars or hotel rooms. It's not a particularly interesting anecdote. The anecdotes aren't interesting. Nothing ever came of not reading the contracts, but they were successful people who didn't take ten minutes to read a contract.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  Maybe they have read one before, and they're all pretty similar so the benefit of reading another one is minor compared to just having insurance pay for it. Also the rental companies have a an incentive to not be featured in a 60 minutes style expose.
jamesk_au 12y ago
In Australia, we have some beneficial consumer laws (eg prohibiting misleading conduct in trade or commerce), and I have heard of some people deliberately not reading contracts so that they can rely on favourable oral representations made to them by the other party, which could be a big business representative or (more commonly) a shop assistant or clerk. The idea is that it doesn't matter whether the contract (often handed to you at the same time) says anything different to what you were told by the representative, provided that you don't know what the contract says and are genuinely relying on what you were told (and can later prove what they told you). There are some other caveats too but you get the idea. You do leave yourself open to the risk of agreeing to other nasty clauses in the contract wholly unrelated to what was said to you though.
- knodi123 12y ago
  That would be fantastic. I've recently signed a complicated contract (which I read, but which I don't fully understand, and it's in an area I know is rife with hidden gotchas), and while my employer gave me a very explicit and unambiguous explanation of how wonderful it is for me (and yes, I recorded the call), I would love the confidence of knowing the law would defend me if he was lying.

kyle_t 12y ago

I think there are two things at play here. 1. People perceive they don't have a choice. For example when you visit the doctor and you have to sign 12 different form/contracts. Most people believe they either sign them or don't get treated. 2. Fear of not understanding. They think they wouldn't understand they legalese even if they tried, so why even bother? Personally I don't blame them. I've read contracts that were so wordy and had so much legalese in them you'd be convinced the lawyers wrote them that way just so everyone involved would need to hire as many lawyers as possible simply to understand the darn thing.

mootothemax 12y ago
Thanks, those are some really interesting points! I still find both explanations a bit strange, though. I mean, wouldn't you at least like to know whether there are any restrictions on operating a company from your rented accommodation, even if you perceive that you don't have any choice in it? Or even just where you stand in general? I've also read some crazy legalese, but the thing is that I've read a heck of a lot more contracts that aren't legalese, and are very easy to understand. That leaves me wondering whether it's the common introductory bits (e.g. that state "THE TENANT is John Smith") that make people give up early?
dredmorbius 12y ago
I've walked out of businesses and/or offices on account of contract terms offered. There is that option.
- jxm 12y ago
  Do you find that has a negative affect on your interactions with society? I can't imagine I could find a dentist or doctor that didn't have patient contractual obligations that I'd rather not agree to.
  - ashark 12y ago
    This is the problem, really. Don't like some terms in e.g. a mobile phone agreement? Take it or leave it. If you can't mobilize a mass of people to join you in rejecting it (you almost certainly can't, even if everyone hates the terms) your choice is to sign or go to another carrier (who will have the same problematic clauses in their contract). It'll hurt you more to be without a phone than it'll hurt the company not to take some special snowflake contract with you and get your tiny monthly payment in return. This is broadly true for loans, employment contracts, even doctors'/hospitals' contracts. For the overwhelming majority of business interactions most individuals participate in, they're the weaker party by a large margin. The notion that any substantial portion of contracts and business agreements are being freely made between equals is a fiction. Degrees of coercion are everywhere. Consider: it's common to require candidates for low-wage jobs to take a piss test. If they say no, someone else will agree because they need the money. The business can afford to be at 98% capacity (or just overwork their employees) for another couple of days—an individual may not be able to afford an income of $0.00 for another couple of days. The job is worth more to the candidate than the (particular) candidate is to the employer. Agree, but insist your potential manager show you the results of a piss test, too? Laughed out of the room. Equals? Not even close. Yadda yadda yadda this is the reason we have laws and don't just rely on contacts for everything. Also why unions exist (and why they must require membership, or else be largely ineffective) for employment issues specifically.
    - dredmorbius 12y ago
CPLX 12y ago
I think a grossly underutilized tactic is learning the art of quickly reading and red-lining a contract. Meaning you go through line by line and cross out particularly nasty lines or clauses, or make quick edits, and then initial next to the changes. Then sign at the bottom and hand it back. It's a habit I picked up from being in the music business for years, specifically being a concert promoter in my early 20's, where it's absolutely standard and normal practice to get a contract, red-line or change the stuff that doesn't apply or doesn't work for you, and return it. A good example would be striking language like "or for any other reason" at the end of a cancellation clause, or changing terms from perpetuity to 12 months, stuff like that. I've since done it at doctor's offices, when renting or buying things, when signing a simple freelancing contract, and many other contexts. It's much less confrontational, after all you do sign it and hand it back to them, putting the onus on them to deal with it if it's a problem. I recommend this approach highly if you're the type to care.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  Don't they usually contain things like. "Any changes to this standard contract have to be approved by the CEO of LargeCorp in writing, otherwise it is invalid". And every change has to be initialed by has to be initialed by both parties.
  - jpatokal 12y ago
    In that case the entire contract is invalid and neither party is bound by it.
SilasX 12y ago
It's compounded with scummy tactics too. I've had one office email me a few forms to read and sign before the first office visit. Then, when I arrive two minutes before the appointment, they give me "just one more form", which is the arbitration agreement. Why couldn't that have been sent with the others? To pressure people into signing. Heck, I've even had medical doctors insist that I don't need to read something before signing it, just "get the gist" so they can go ahead with the appointment. Edit2: I almost think the world is designed around prodding you not to read the contract, by any means necessary, and then holding you personally responsible for it. Like, imagine parking garages. Try asking for a contract there and see what happens. Let's say you don't like the terms. Then what? They make everyone back out of the single lane entry while glaring at you? What about negotiating the terms? And good luck expecting them not to assert rights they can't legally get via contract.

littleweep 12y ago

Do you read the entire End User License Agreement before clicking 'Install'?

hobs 12y ago
Yes, I read every contract I sign my name to, or prevent myself from taking that action. I didnt start doing this until I was probably about 16 or 17 and realized the terms that people were tying themselves to, and often that said terms were legally binding. I have had employers and peers ridicule me when I take my time to always read everything in the contract, and I simply dont care, I will continue to do it anyway.
- falcolas 12y ago
  Honest question, how do you get anything else done? I'm in the coffee shop for my morning hacker news dose, and I've already interacted with 2-3 contracts in the form of EULAs in the 20 minutes I've been here. If I took the time to read and comprehend each of those (while looking for changes in one I've read before, after all there's usually a "terms may change without prior notice" clause), I wouldn't have done anything else this morning.
  - hobs 12y ago
    Trying not to be hyperbolic since some people apparently didnt like my earlier comments, but it doesnt take that long to read most contracts unless they are purposefully misleading. Most EULAs have very little original content and dont require deep analysis. Considering those 2-3 things you signed up for or agreed to meant, even insignificantly, that you have given away something of your rights, I think it absolutely behooves anyone to spend the time to decide if those random websites are worth it if they make you agree to a EULA that is pages and pages long. The point about terms may change without prior notice is fair, I still struggle to regularly read the various changes to the TOS for things as simple as my credit card (which have way WAY shittier contracts to read compared to a EULA). Wile I have seen some services which could provide a diff and notify you on changes, I have decided it is better to not use abusive services instead of play a game of cat and mouse with them.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dalke 12y ago

Software license agreements. Huge numbers of successful people click "ok" and don't read the license at all.

Lawtonfogle 12y ago
Huge numbers? If I ever met anyone who said they read the full license for all software they use, I would call them a liar.
- _acme 12y ago
  Re-read what you replied to.
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    I was alluding to 'huge numbers' being an understatement.
- tormeh 12y ago
  Stallman
  - dalke 12y ago
    Lawtonfogle changed the original statement regarding reading a contract that required an affirmation to the more nebulous "the full license for all software they use." One does not require a software license in order to use it. An elevator may be controlled by software, without having to sign an EULA. I have seen Stallman using a network connection where the router ran a non-free OS and where he did not sign a license agreement in order to use it.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      >Lawtonfogle changed the original statement regarding reading a contract that required an affirmation to the more nebulous "the full license for all software they use." TBH, I was actually meaning just the software that you have to click agree to or that has the 'by signing up with an account, you agree...'. I may not have worded it fully accurate for my intention, and if so I apologize for the confusion.

GavinMcG 12y ago

Judge Richard Posner claims that he didn't read the contract for his home equity loan: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-lawyers-actaully-read-boilerplate-contracts-judge-richard-posner-doesnt-do-you/ http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/do-lawyers-actaully-read-boil...

rondon2 12y ago

I was given a non employee poaching contract to sign when I gave my notice at BIGCORP. It had some vague language like "I will not attempt to contact any BIGCORP employees with information about other positions". I gave it back to the manager at the exit interview unsigned and said nice try. I guess they are just hoping someone doesn't read it.

rprospero 12y ago

Since you wanted anecdotal stories, I've known multiple relatively successful people (not billionaires, but millionaires who moved in high powered social circles) who didn't read the contracts for their rental cars or hotel rooms. It's not a particularly interesting anecdote. The anecdotes aren't interesting. Nothing ever came of not reading the contracts, but they were successful people who didn't take ten minutes to read a contract.

mahyarm 12y ago
Maybe they have read one before, and they're all pretty similar so the benefit of reading another one is minor compared to just having insurance pay for it. Also the rental companies have a an incentive to not be featured in a 60 minutes style expose.

jamesk_au 12y ago

In Australia, we have some beneficial consumer laws (eg prohibiting misleading conduct in trade or commerce), and I have heard of some people deliberately not reading contracts so that they can rely on favourable oral representations made to them by the other party, which could be a big business representative or (more commonly) a shop assistant or clerk. The idea is that it doesn't matter whether the contract (often handed to you at the same time) says anything different to what you were told by the representative, provided that you don't know what the contract says and are genuinely relying on what you were told (and can later prove what they told you). There are some other caveats too but you get the idea. You do leave yourself open to the risk of agreeing to other nasty clauses in the contract wholly unrelated to what was said to you though.

knodi123 12y ago
That would be fantastic. I've recently signed a complicated contract (which I read, but which I don't fully understand, and it's in an area I know is rife with hidden gotchas), and while my employer gave me a very explicit and unambiguous explanation of how wonderful it is for me (and yes, I recorded the call), I would love the confidence of knowing the law would defend me if he was lying.