7 ms·

Benefit how? Seems like an expensive hobby to me

by kaeluka 12y ago

weland 12y ago
The Musashi is an important part of naval history. If Allen has, indeed, found it, studying it or even displaying parts of it in a museum would immensely help preserve the memory of those days. It was also a remarkable feat of engineering, and I think there was only one other ship like it.
- masklinn 12y ago
  > The Musashi is an important part of naval history. There still is little to no benefit. The Yamato wreck was found 30 years ago and is significantly more accessible (under ~340m under the surface versus >1km) > It was also a remarkable feat of engineering Meh. Japan had actually planned for a Super-Yamato class (design A-150), but demand for carriers and cruisers diverted resources and the project was killed after Midway. > I think there was only one other ship like it. 3-ish, Shinano was initially laid down as a Yamato-class battleship before being remodeled into an aircraft carrier. And of course they weren't actually useful ships at that point (the US canceled the Montana class without laying a single keel)
  - weland 12y ago
    Even if it's never retrieved (which is likely, given how difficult it is to access), I think the mere fact that it was spotted, marked, and can be explored, is an important milestone. People ought to remember these things.
    - masklinn 12y ago
      > I think the mere fact that it was spotted, marked, and can be explored, is an important milestone. An important milestone of what? It's not like that wreck is likely to contain anything of interest, anything which would change our understanding of the pacific theatre let alone the war. And we have extensive traces of more or less the entire history of the Musashi (including a rough location of the sinking) so its eventual fate has never been in question. > People ought to remember these things. I'm reasonably certain the activities of one of the biggest navies of WWII is remembered reasonably clearly. By opposition to, say, the Porajmos.
      - weland 12y ago
        > An important milestone of what? It's not like that wreck is likely to contain anything of interest, anything which would change our understanding of the pacific theatre let alone the war. The battlefield at Agincourt also contains nothing of interest, and the famed forest isn't there today, either. And yet, there's still a plaque there that commemorates the event, just like there is on every memorial house. Even if it didn't add any information, the mere fact that the ship was found is important. A pile of metal on the bottom of the sea is a far stronger reminder.
        masklinn 12y ago
        > A pile of metal on the bottom of the sea is a far stronger reminder. 1. A pile of metal a kilometer under the surface is no reminder, an invisible reminder reminds nobody. 2. 30 ships and 500+ planes were lost during Leyte Gulf, it's not like one more wreck nobody can see unless they've bought themselves a $200m yacht and an ROV is going to change any reminding. If you find rich people playing with their toys cool that's fine, but don't pretend they're doing anything other than playing with their toys.
        ethbro 12y ago
        > If you find rich people playing with their toys cool that's fine, but don't pretend they're doing anything other than playing with their toys. If you want to be snarky, I'd say it at minimum means something to the ~1,000 families of the Japanese sailors who went down with the ship.
    - Shivetya 12y ago
      color me impressed when someone like him finds MH370 or other truly extraordinary disappearances. there are so many other things go searching for than the twin of another ship we already have found.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    "Do you create anything or just criticize others and belittle their motivations?"
    - Aushin 12y ago
      I used to agree with this sentiment, but this essay changed my view: http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977 http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977
curiously 12y ago
I thought the exact same thing. It might be unfair of me to judge what he does with his money but all I see is just a rich guy having fun. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But consider that these battleships once fired on Americans, helped enslave Asia. If he found a German U-boat my response would be the same. Here we are celebrating the artifacts of a perverted imperial force that is responsible for countless crime against humanity.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  I will also celebrate any artifact of Chengis Khan ... Humans are renewable resource[1]. History and knowledge are much more precious. [1] Not only mine, but every corporation with HR department opinion.
- onion2k 12y ago
  History and the preservation of artefacts is not about celebrating. It's about remembering and learning why people did what they did. It's incredibly important for future generations to know what happened in the two World Wars otherwise there will always be a danger that people might do it again. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
  - masklinn 12y ago
    And finding the Musashi wreck reminds us of that… how? Wouldn't it have been a much better reminder if Allen had put his yacht money towards, say, improving the Unit 731 Museum or conserving/improving the east-european camps ruins?
    - saiya-jin 12y ago
      oh boy, you sure have an issue with what hobbies people choose :) why don't you have an issue with people going bowling & drinking beer on saturday night, just to pick an example out of gazillions more? this one has more outcome than just joy of participants, everybody here except you accepts it and is happy about that... just sad trolling around?
qb45 12y ago
What's wrong with sponsoring sonar and underwater robotics R&D?
- masklinn 12y ago
  What R&D? In 2015 Paul Allen found a 1000m deep 70000t wreck whose rough location was known. RMS Titanic is a 50000t wreck in two parts 3700m deep and was found in 1985. Bismarck's 45000t wreck was found in 1989 under 4800m of water.
whybroke 12y ago
Yes, it's a hobby that generates some marine archeology which is very nice. Probably not the equivalent cost of building and running what was the largest yacht in the world. Probably not the most sensible process for choosing projects to pursue. Clearly not as efficient as simply taxing that amount and devoting it directly to more systematically chosen research projects by people familiar with the field. Saving, for example, the whole yacht part. But certainly a great deal better than funding political campaigns to drive down wages. So kudos!
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > But certainly a great deal better than funding political campaigns It's better than this by sole virtue of having anything coming out of it. Political campaigns are zero-sum games for wasting infinite amounts of money.
- greedo 12y ago
  The idea that his money should be taxed instead of spent as he wants is a bit disgusting. He's already paid taxes on the money he has earned, and if he wants to spend it on something you find lacking in efficiency and sensibility that's his business. So kudos for derailing this thread about an interesting archaeological find.
madaxe_again 12y ago
Salvage rights, potentially - although I doubt, unless there's a secret stash of bullion aboard (no idea why there would be), that recovering anything is going to be economically viable, due to its depth. That, and the fact that it's a mass grave.
melling 12y ago
He donates a lot of money to brain research too. It just doesn't get the HN audience excited: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Paul%20Allen%20brain&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Paul%20Allen%20brain&sort=byPo... As for expensive hobbies, it does help create an economy for the "toys" needed in the endeavour. Robotic research vehicles, etc. it's certainly more worthwhile than trolling around HN/reddit.
- whybroke 12y ago
  The "toys" could be purchased more coherently and consistently by teams who know the field if they had equivalent funding. And used for projects of significantly more historical and scientific value (though probably less media value). Although it's better than nothing, I'm not sure relying on arbitrary funding from wealthy hobbyists on projects they happen to find fun is the best way to decide the direction of research. >it's certainly more worthwhile than trolling around HN/reddit. Once you squeeze enough on wages there's not enough disposable income to do much else.
  - melling 12y ago
    Yeah, there's always some guy who says this. Well, then do it. Raise the funds and get the team or convince taxpayers to to fund it. The team looking for Amelia Earhart, for example, has been at it for a long time by raising private funds. http://gizmodo.com/5936462/a-search-team-might-have-finally-found-amelia-earhart-after-75-years http://gizmodo.com/5936462/a-search-team-might-have-finally-... Here's another privately/self funded team looking for WW2 planes. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anderson-cooper-diving-deep-for-the-forgotten/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anderson-cooper-diving-deep-for-... But for goodness sakes, don't be The Critic: http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html
    - whybroke 12y ago
      There's nothing unusual or evil about Paul Allen in particular. But there is a disastrous trend at reducing public funding for research and education and pretending that that a few volunteer enthusiast or fund raisers can compensate for it. Or that the amusement of and for the increasingly super rich are adequate technical compensation. Such much so that a company devoted to amusement rides into sub orbit is often called the superior of NASA and the word philanthropy now, incredibly, applies to the subject mater of this article. With a posting worded as over the top as this one, it's an opportunity to clearly point out this silliness. Calls to additional action are quite right as you say. But likewise, pointing these issues out here does not preclude other action. >Yeah, there's always some guy who says this I certainly hope so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gadfly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gadfly

Benefit how? Seems like an expensive hobby to me

by kaeluka 12y ago

Benefit how? Seems like an expensive hobby to me

The Musashi is an important part of naval history. If Allen has, indeed, found it, studying it or even displaying parts of it in a museum would immensely help preserve the memory of those days. It was also a remarkable feat of engineering, and I think there was only one other ship like it.

masklinn 12y ago
> The Musashi is an important part of naval history. There still is little to no benefit. The Yamato wreck was found 30 years ago and is significantly more accessible (under ~340m under the surface versus >1km) > It was also a remarkable feat of engineering Meh. Japan had actually planned for a Super-Yamato class (design A-150), but demand for carriers and cruisers diverted resources and the project was killed after Midway. > I think there was only one other ship like it. 3-ish, Shinano was initially laid down as a Yamato-class battleship before being remodeled into an aircraft carrier. And of course they weren't actually useful ships at that point (the US canceled the Montana class without laying a single keel)
- weland 12y ago
  Even if it's never retrieved (which is likely, given how difficult it is to access), I think the mere fact that it was spotted, marked, and can be explored, is an important milestone. People ought to remember these things.
  - masklinn 12y ago
    > I think the mere fact that it was spotted, marked, and can be explored, is an important milestone. An important milestone of what? It's not like that wreck is likely to contain anything of interest, anything which would change our understanding of the pacific theatre let alone the war. And we have extensive traces of more or less the entire history of the Musashi (including a rough location of the sinking) so its eventual fate has never been in question. > People ought to remember these things. I'm reasonably certain the activities of one of the biggest navies of WWII is remembered reasonably clearly. By opposition to, say, the Porajmos.
    - weland 12y ago
      > An important milestone of what? It's not like that wreck is likely to contain anything of interest, anything which would change our understanding of the pacific theatre let alone the war. The battlefield at Agincourt also contains nothing of interest, and the famed forest isn't there today, either. And yet, there's still a plaque there that commemorates the event, just like there is on every memorial house. Even if it didn't add any information, the mere fact that the ship was found is important. A pile of metal on the bottom of the sea is a far stronger reminder.
      - masklinn 12y ago
        > A pile of metal on the bottom of the sea is a far stronger reminder. 1. A pile of metal a kilometer under the surface is no reminder, an invisible reminder reminds nobody. 2. 30 ships and 500+ planes were lost during Leyte Gulf, it's not like one more wreck nobody can see unless they've bought themselves a $200m yacht and an ROV is going to change any reminding. If you find rich people playing with their toys cool that's fine, but don't pretend they're doing anything other than playing with their toys.
        ethbro 12y ago
        > If you find rich people playing with their toys cool that's fine, but don't pretend they're doing anything other than playing with their toys. If you want to be snarky, I'd say it at minimum means something to the ~1,000 families of the Japanese sailors who went down with the ship.
  - Shivetya 12y ago
    color me impressed when someone like him finds MH370 or other truly extraordinary disappearances. there are so many other things go searching for than the twin of another ship we already have found.
- philwelch 12y ago
  "Do you create anything or just criticize others and belittle their motivations?"
  - Aushin 12y ago
    I used to agree with this sentiment, but this essay changed my view: http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977 http://gawker.com/on-smarm-1476594977

curiously 12y ago

I thought the exact same thing. It might be unfair of me to judge what he does with his money but all I see is just a rich guy having fun. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But consider that these battleships once fired on Americans, helped enslave Asia. If he found a German U-boat my response would be the same. Here we are celebrating the artifacts of a perverted imperial force that is responsible for countless crime against humanity.

venomsnake 12y ago
I will also celebrate any artifact of Chengis Khan ... Humans are renewable resource[1]. History and knowledge are much more precious. [1] Not only mine, but every corporation with HR department opinion.
onion2k 12y ago
History and the preservation of artefacts is not about celebrating. It's about remembering and learning why people did what they did. It's incredibly important for future generations to know what happened in the two World Wars otherwise there will always be a danger that people might do it again. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
- masklinn 12y ago
  And finding the Musashi wreck reminds us of that… how? Wouldn't it have been a much better reminder if Allen had put his yacht money towards, say, improving the Unit 731 Museum or conserving/improving the east-european camps ruins?
  - saiya-jin 12y ago
    oh boy, you sure have an issue with what hobbies people choose :) why don't you have an issue with people going bowling & drinking beer on saturday night, just to pick an example out of gazillions more? this one has more outcome than just joy of participants, everybody here except you accepts it and is happy about that... just sad trolling around?

qb45 12y ago

What's wrong with sponsoring sonar and underwater robotics R&D?

masklinn 12y ago
What R&D? In 2015 Paul Allen found a 1000m deep 70000t wreck whose rough location was known. RMS Titanic is a 50000t wreck in two parts 3700m deep and was found in 1985. Bismarck's 45000t wreck was found in 1989 under 4800m of water.

whybroke 12y ago

Yes, it's a hobby that generates some marine archeology which is very nice. Probably not the equivalent cost of building and running what was the largest yacht in the world. Probably not the most sensible process for choosing projects to pursue. Clearly not as efficient as simply taxing that amount and devoting it directly to more systematically chosen research projects by people familiar with the field. Saving, for example, the whole yacht part. But certainly a great deal better than funding political campaigns to drive down wages. So kudos!

TeMPOraL 12y ago
> But certainly a great deal better than funding political campaigns It's better than this by sole virtue of having anything coming out of it. Political campaigns are zero-sum games for wasting infinite amounts of money.
greedo 12y ago
The idea that his money should be taxed instead of spent as he wants is a bit disgusting. He's already paid taxes on the money he has earned, and if he wants to spend it on something you find lacking in efficiency and sensibility that's his business. So kudos for derailing this thread about an interesting archaeological find.

madaxe_again 12y ago

Salvage rights, potentially - although I doubt, unless there's a secret stash of bullion aboard (no idea why there would be), that recovering anything is going to be economically viable, due to its depth. That, and the fact that it's a mass grave.

melling 12y ago

He donates a lot of money to brain research too. It just doesn't get the HN audience excited: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Paul%20Allen%20brain&sort=byPopularity&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Paul%20Allen%20brain&sort=byPo... As for expensive hobbies, it does help create an economy for the "toys" needed in the endeavour. Robotic research vehicles, etc. it's certainly more worthwhile than trolling around HN/reddit.

whybroke 12y ago
The "toys" could be purchased more coherently and consistently by teams who know the field if they had equivalent funding. And used for projects of significantly more historical and scientific value (though probably less media value). Although it's better than nothing, I'm not sure relying on arbitrary funding from wealthy hobbyists on projects they happen to find fun is the best way to decide the direction of research. >it's certainly more worthwhile than trolling around HN/reddit. Once you squeeze enough on wages there's not enough disposable income to do much else.
- melling 12y ago
  Yeah, there's always some guy who says this. Well, then do it. Raise the funds and get the team or convince taxpayers to to fund it. The team looking for Amelia Earhart, for example, has been at it for a long time by raising private funds. http://gizmodo.com/5936462/a-search-team-might-have-finally-found-amelia-earhart-after-75-years http://gizmodo.com/5936462/a-search-team-might-have-finally-... Here's another privately/self funded team looking for WW2 planes. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anderson-cooper-diving-deep-for-the-forgotten/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anderson-cooper-diving-deep-for-... But for goodness sakes, don't be The Critic: http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html
  - whybroke 12y ago
    There's nothing unusual or evil about Paul Allen in particular. But there is a disastrous trend at reducing public funding for research and education and pretending that that a few volunteer enthusiast or fund raisers can compensate for it. Or that the amusement of and for the increasingly super rich are adequate technical compensation. Such much so that a company devoted to amusement rides into sub orbit is often called the superior of NASA and the word philanthropy now, incredibly, applies to the subject mater of this article. With a posting worded as over the top as this one, it's an opportunity to clearly point out this silliness. Calls to additional action are quite right as you say. But likewise, pointing these issues out here does not preclude other action. >Yeah, there's always some guy who says this I certainly hope so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gadfly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_gadfly