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I think the GP is correct - the United States is not the country to move to if you want to have your children grow up independent/free-ranging, at least not rig

I think the GP is correct - the United States is not the country to move to if you want to have your children grow up independent/free-ranging, at least not right now. For whatever reason, there is a tendency towards helicopter parenting that seems to be the rule, rather than the exception in the United States, and it's reflected in the Laws. I grew in the late 70s with my 9-12 year old friends like a bunch of savages - our parents would kick us out of the house in the morning, and we wouldn't see them until dinner time - and looking at Google Maps - it looks like I routinely ranged about 1.5 - 2 Miles away from home - and never really thought much about it. I'd be interesting in hearing more Japanese/Swiss parents feedback on whether their country really is more liberal than the United States when it comes to letting their younger children walk to school in the presence of only another child, not older than 12 years old.

m_mueller 12y ago
> I'd be interesting in hearing more Japanese/Swiss parents feedback on whether their country really is more liberal than the United States when it comes to letting their younger children walk to school in the presence of only another child, not older than 12 years old. Here's an interesting discussion by English speaking parents in Switzerland [1]. The same for Japan can be found here [2]. These are largely the same as my observations. [1] http://www.englishforum.ch/education/207982-kindergarten.html http://www.englishforum.ch/education/207982-kindergarten.htm... [2] http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+77744 http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+77744 Edit: See, even that you had to specify this stance as "independent/free-ranging" tells me that there's a cultural clash at work here. Where I and my wife come from, we dont' need to apply such adjectives to what we consider 'normal parenting'.
kurige 12y ago
> I'd be interesting in hearing more Japanese/Swiss parents feedback on whether their country really is more liberal than the United States when it comes to letting their younger children walk to school in the presence of only another child, not older than 12 years old. This isn't at all what you asked for, but I'm going to share it anyway, just for the sake of some heady juxtaposition. It's apparently a common sight in Iceland to see babies in strollers left unattended, outdoors, in sub-zero temperatures[1]. That definitely falls under the "you can't make this shit up," category for me. It's almost comically Viking. [1]: http://qz.com/351821/for-generations-icelandic-babies-have-napped-in-sub-zero-temperatures-outside/ http://qz.com/351821/for-generations-icelandic-babies-have-n...
- m_mueller 12y ago
  What an awesome read. Thanks for linking.
- jacalata 12y ago
  I have heard that this is common in Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Norway, although I haven't seen it - for example, Norway: http://relocation.no/archives/culture-shock-norway-outdoor-sleeping-babies/ http://relocation.no/archives/culture-shock-norway-outdoor-s...
- dagw 12y ago
  a common sight in Iceland to see babies in strollers left unattended, outdoors, in sub-zero temperatures It's fairly common in most of Scandinavia as well.
- terryf 12y ago
  Having had three kids and living in an almost nordic country (Estonia) I can confirm that yes, indeed infants do sleep outside in winter temperatures. Mine did as well and they're fine and of regular health. The trick with sleeping outside is that you have to make sure that they're warm and that there is no wind directly blowing at their face and there is blankets and stuff surrounding. In this case, breathing actually creates a zone of warmer air, so they don't breathe in the super-cold air all the time. The upside is that they get to sleep in fresh air and the parents get some free time. Win-win. Regarding scool-age kids not being left left alone, I can't even imagine how this could possibly work. School for my eight year old is done by 12:45 - I work at least until 17:00, usually even a bit more, so does his mom. He comes home after school, warms up his meal (using a gas stove with an open flame - never had an accident or even a mishap with this btw) and on the days that he has swimming practice takes a bus to that. Trip from school to home is about 8km. I'd actually kind of like to know, how do people manage work in the US, where I understand that this kind of behaviour is not allowed. If I were to pick him up after school and come home with him every day, it would mean that I could only have a half-time job maximum..
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    In the United States (and Canada), these types of kids were referred to as, "Latchkey Kids" - which I always thought had a positive spin, but apparently some considered it more typical of the lower socio-economic class, and therefore negative. To answer your question, Daycare or After School activities are two of the mechanisms used to keep children safe when their parents are working - which can be a real problem if the Daycare costs more than the salary being made by the employee - this is a real problem in the United States, and results in situations in which the parents would end up losing money by working. Usually what happens is the parent finds another stay-at-home parent, or unemployed parent, to take care of their children for a smaller amount of $$$. Ask yourself what you did with your eight year old before he was eight years old. Now extend that out another couple years.
hellerbarde 12y ago
Switzerland represent! Yeah, I had a similar Upbringing. We went out and just did whatever outside. Then back for Lunch and then out again. Running around in the woods, building dams in the small stream, and so on. We were at the fringe of a small suburban town right next to some woods. I think we also ranged about 1-1.5 Miles away from home. We did have some boundaries set up by our parents, but that was really more to kind of limit the places they needed to check whether we fell asleep somewhere or something. The area was certainly big enough and exciting enough to tide us over. And when I was 11, I was given a card for public transportation and we went to school in the "big" city (biggest city in CH). We took public transportation, switched modes 2 times (10 min walking to the train station, 15 min train ride, 12 min tram ride, 20 min bus ride). After the initial confusion over how public transport works, where all the info is located at the stations, no big deal. We usually rode in a group of 2-3, but if you missed a connection, you'd ride alone. I feel that Switzerland has (had? I don't have kids... no real idea how it is 20 years later) a healthy attitude towards this stuff. Maybe that's just because I grew up there, but I feel that having an environment where we feel that children can roam around without getting murderized at every corner is something all societies should strive towards. And this absurd helicopter parenting I hear about sounds like it's trying to mitigate symptoms, not alleviate the root cause.

m_mueller 12y ago

> I'd be interesting in hearing more Japanese/Swiss parents feedback on whether their country really is more liberal than the United States when it comes to letting their younger children walk to school in the presence of only another child, not older than 12 years old. Here's an interesting discussion by English speaking parents in Switzerland [1]. The same for Japan can be found here [2]. These are largely the same as my observations. [1] http://www.englishforum.ch/education/207982-kindergarten.html http://www.englishforum.ch/education/207982-kindergarten.htm... [2] http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+77744 http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/quereadisplay.html?0+77744 Edit: See, even that you had to specify this stance as "independent/free-ranging" tells me that there's a cultural clash at work here. Where I and my wife come from, we dont' need to apply such adjectives to what we consider 'normal parenting'.

kurige 12y ago

> I'd be interesting in hearing more Japanese/Swiss parents feedback on whether their country really is more liberal than the United States when it comes to letting their younger children walk to school in the presence of only another child, not older than 12 years old. This isn't at all what you asked for, but I'm going to share it anyway, just for the sake of some heady juxtaposition. It's apparently a common sight in Iceland to see babies in strollers left unattended, outdoors, in sub-zero temperatures[1]. That definitely falls under the "you can't make this shit up," category for me. It's almost comically Viking. [1]: http://qz.com/351821/for-generations-icelandic-babies-have-napped-in-sub-zero-temperatures-outside/ http://qz.com/351821/for-generations-icelandic-babies-have-n...

m_mueller 12y ago
What an awesome read. Thanks for linking.
jacalata 12y ago
I have heard that this is common in Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Norway, although I haven't seen it - for example, Norway: http://relocation.no/archives/culture-shock-norway-outdoor-sleeping-babies/ http://relocation.no/archives/culture-shock-norway-outdoor-s...
dagw 12y ago
a common sight in Iceland to see babies in strollers left unattended, outdoors, in sub-zero temperatures It's fairly common in most of Scandinavia as well.
terryf 12y ago
Having had three kids and living in an almost nordic country (Estonia) I can confirm that yes, indeed infants do sleep outside in winter temperatures. Mine did as well and they're fine and of regular health. The trick with sleeping outside is that you have to make sure that they're warm and that there is no wind directly blowing at their face and there is blankets and stuff surrounding. In this case, breathing actually creates a zone of warmer air, so they don't breathe in the super-cold air all the time. The upside is that they get to sleep in fresh air and the parents get some free time. Win-win. Regarding scool-age kids not being left left alone, I can't even imagine how this could possibly work. School for my eight year old is done by 12:45 - I work at least until 17:00, usually even a bit more, so does his mom. He comes home after school, warms up his meal (using a gas stove with an open flame - never had an accident or even a mishap with this btw) and on the days that he has swimming practice takes a bus to that. Trip from school to home is about 8km. I'd actually kind of like to know, how do people manage work in the US, where I understand that this kind of behaviour is not allowed. If I were to pick him up after school and come home with him every day, it would mean that I could only have a half-time job maximum..
- ghshephard 12y ago
  In the United States (and Canada), these types of kids were referred to as, "Latchkey Kids" - which I always thought had a positive spin, but apparently some considered it more typical of the lower socio-economic class, and therefore negative. To answer your question, Daycare or After School activities are two of the mechanisms used to keep children safe when their parents are working - which can be a real problem if the Daycare costs more than the salary being made by the employee - this is a real problem in the United States, and results in situations in which the parents would end up losing money by working. Usually what happens is the parent finds another stay-at-home parent, or unemployed parent, to take care of their children for a smaller amount of $$$. Ask yourself what you did with your eight year old before he was eight years old. Now extend that out another couple years.

hellerbarde 12y ago

Switzerland represent! Yeah, I had a similar Upbringing. We went out and just did whatever outside. Then back for Lunch and then out again. Running around in the woods, building dams in the small stream, and so on. We were at the fringe of a small suburban town right next to some woods. I think we also ranged about 1-1.5 Miles away from home. We did have some boundaries set up by our parents, but that was really more to kind of limit the places they needed to check whether we fell asleep somewhere or something. The area was certainly big enough and exciting enough to tide us over. And when I was 11, I was given a card for public transportation and we went to school in the "big" city (biggest city in CH). We took public transportation, switched modes 2 times (10 min walking to the train station, 15 min train ride, 12 min tram ride, 20 min bus ride). After the initial confusion over how public transport works, where all the info is located at the stations, no big deal. We usually rode in a group of 2-3, but if you missed a connection, you'd ride alone. I feel that Switzerland has (had? I don't have kids... no real idea how it is 20 years later) a healthy attitude towards this stuff. Maybe that's just because I grew up there, but I feel that having an environment where we feel that children can roam around without getting murderized at every corner is something all societies should strive towards. And this absurd helicopter parenting I hear about sounds like it's trying to mitigate symptoms, not alleviate the root cause.