7 ms·

Switzerland might be different, but let's be honest, many of the countries that surround it don't have political cultures that instill independence in its citiz

Switzerland might be different, but let's be honest, many of the countries that surround it don't have political cultures that instill independence in its citizens...especially compared to the U.S.

m_mueller 12y ago
I can't say too much about other European countries since I've never lived there for longer periods of time, but at least judging by what I read I don't quite get your argument. The way I see it there are two aspects of classic liberalism: * liberal towards persons * liberal towards organizations These two often contradict each other, so IMO a place cannot be perfectly and absolutely liberal - it will at best be a balance between the two. The US from what I can judge is extremely liberal towards organizations - kick out tenants, fire employees, influence the government through legal bribery (PACs) - go ahead, no problem (keep your lawyers ready though). Towards persons the US seems to be pretty much the opposite of liberal - the government seems to want to regulate every aspect of people's lives, and if some fall outside the norm there's politicians declaring war on them and introducing more and harsher punishments. In France, Italy, Austria and Germany (=our large neighbours), the tendency is rather the opposite: Relatively liberal towards people, very restrictive towards organizations. Switzerland is a balance between the two, but with the general idea of not restricting anything if it's not really necessary. There's even a third level of liberalism: Towards local governments. Want your own tax regime, with Blackjack and Hookers? Build a new village in Switzerland and let it become an official commune, there you go.
- learc83 12y ago
  It's a little more nuanced than that--different countries value different personal freedoms. For instance, in Germany you can't homeschool you're children, in the US you can. In the UK it's very difficult to own a gun, in the US it's easy. Many hate speech laws in Europe would be unconstitutional in the US, and the US has broader protections for criminal defendants than many other developed countries. However, on the other side, the US lacks universal healthcare, and has fewer consumer and privacy protections.
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    Yes, gun laws and freedom of speech is usually cited when comparing personal freedoms in the US and Europe - and I agree, it's one aspect of personal freedom (and Switzerland is somewhere in between there btw.). In my opinion however, the differences in these two areas are rather marginal when it comes to how life plays out. To me it comes down to this: Let's say I'm an Alien from outer space who tries to integrate into human society. How free am I to do whatever I'd like. Let's mount Maslow's pyramid. * changing the atmosphere with the gas I like to breath didn't go over too well - got imprisoned for a while, will not repeat. * eating a human was even worse! After decades of imprisonment and therapy in Europe they actually let me free again, my friend in Texas wasn't that lucky. Wouldn't recommend. * Alright, I've learned that human life is sacred and that I shouldn't try to change the environment too much that humans like. Next I had to get was some food source. After searching through what humans throw away (tasty!), some humans came and brought me to a place with a roof. I talked to some other human with a suit who hooked me up with some idea of theirs, I think it's called a 'bank account'. I learned that I can use that to go to a 'store' and exchange that thing using some electrons with fresh food. Pretty neat! * Good news! That suit guy even organized a home for me! Well, the thing is, other humans there didn't quite like my morning roaring rituals, so I had to give them up. Noise is not such a good idea here, especially when silly humans are 'sleeping' - whatever that is, noone could explain so far. Some guy even called in other humans that came in a dress with the word 'police' on it. Was a bit scared at first, but they just explained a bit and went away. * Wanted to paint the outside a bit nicer in traditional Qrkzsu Green. Something strange happened, was sent to a guy that tried to teach me how to integrate. Alright, I got most of it now I think. * It's 40 years later now, nothing much happened. Except I wanted to visit another place that's always in those moving pictures they show using many more electrons. Tried to drink human's version of Grigrog on my way to their own garbage facility. That wasn't a good idea, took a few days to get free again. Wanted to sleep on something they call a 'bench', but apparently it's only for sitting. Ok maybe I've gone a bit far off there ... ;).
robotresearcher 12y ago
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  What are you trying to say?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - m_mueller 12y ago
    Not P, but comparing GP's claim that the US is "instilling independence in its citizens" with the fact that American children have to repeat this every day, does strike me as a contradiction.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      Yeah. I was hoping that robotresearcher's post was intended as sarcasm.
      - robotresearcher 12y ago
        Not sarcasm, just an example against the US being a bastion of the promotion of independent political thinking.
        fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Ah, then we are in agreement!
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- plink 12y ago

Switzerland might be different, but let's be honest, many of the countries that surround it don't have political cultures that instill independence in its citizens...especially compared to the U.S.

m_mueller 12y ago

I can't say too much about other European countries since I've never lived there for longer periods of time, but at least judging by what I read I don't quite get your argument. The way I see it there are two aspects of classic liberalism: * liberal towards persons * liberal towards organizations These two often contradict each other, so IMO a place cannot be perfectly and absolutely liberal - it will at best be a balance between the two. The US from what I can judge is extremely liberal towards organizations - kick out tenants, fire employees, influence the government through legal bribery (PACs) - go ahead, no problem (keep your lawyers ready though). Towards persons the US seems to be pretty much the opposite of liberal - the government seems to want to regulate every aspect of people's lives, and if some fall outside the norm there's politicians declaring war on them and introducing more and harsher punishments. In France, Italy, Austria and Germany (=our large neighbours), the tendency is rather the opposite: Relatively liberal towards people, very restrictive towards organizations. Switzerland is a balance between the two, but with the general idea of not restricting anything if it's not really necessary. There's even a third level of liberalism: Towards local governments. Want your own tax regime, with Blackjack and Hookers? Build a new village in Switzerland and let it become an official commune, there you go.

learc83 12y ago
It's a little more nuanced than that--different countries value different personal freedoms. For instance, in Germany you can't homeschool you're children, in the US you can. In the UK it's very difficult to own a gun, in the US it's easy. Many hate speech laws in Europe would be unconstitutional in the US, and the US has broader protections for criminal defendants than many other developed countries. However, on the other side, the US lacks universal healthcare, and has fewer consumer and privacy protections.
- m_mueller 12y ago
  Yes, gun laws and freedom of speech is usually cited when comparing personal freedoms in the US and Europe - and I agree, it's one aspect of personal freedom (and Switzerland is somewhere in between there btw.). In my opinion however, the differences in these two areas are rather marginal when it comes to how life plays out. To me it comes down to this: Let's say I'm an Alien from outer space who tries to integrate into human society. How free am I to do whatever I'd like. Let's mount Maslow's pyramid. * changing the atmosphere with the gas I like to breath didn't go over too well - got imprisoned for a while, will not repeat. * eating a human was even worse! After decades of imprisonment and therapy in Europe they actually let me free again, my friend in Texas wasn't that lucky. Wouldn't recommend. * Alright, I've learned that human life is sacred and that I shouldn't try to change the environment too much that humans like. Next I had to get was some food source. After searching through what humans throw away (tasty!), some humans came and brought me to a place with a roof. I talked to some other human with a suit who hooked me up with some idea of theirs, I think it's called a 'bank account'. I learned that I can use that to go to a 'store' and exchange that thing using some electrons with fresh food. Pretty neat! * Good news! That suit guy even organized a home for me! Well, the thing is, other humans there didn't quite like my morning roaring rituals, so I had to give them up. Noise is not such a good idea here, especially when silly humans are 'sleeping' - whatever that is, noone could explain so far. Some guy even called in other humans that came in a dress with the word 'police' on it. Was a bit scared at first, but they just explained a bit and went away. * Wanted to paint the outside a bit nicer in traditional Qrkzsu Green. Something strange happened, was sent to a guy that tried to teach me how to integrate. Alright, I got most of it now I think. * It's 40 years later now, nothing much happened. Except I wanted to visit another place that's always in those moving pictures they show using many more electrons. Tried to drink human's version of Grigrog on my way to their own garbage facility. That wasn't a good idea, took a few days to get free again. Wanted to sleep on something they call a 'bench', but apparently it's only for sitting. Ok maybe I've gone a bit far off there ... ;).

robotresearcher 12y ago

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
What are you trying to say?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- m_mueller 12y ago
  Not P, but comparing GP's claim that the US is "instilling independence in its citizens" with the fact that American children have to repeat this every day, does strike me as a contradiction.
  - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
    Yeah. I was hoping that robotresearcher's post was intended as sarcasm.
    - robotresearcher 12y ago
      Not sarcasm, just an example against the US being a bastion of the promotion of independent political thinking.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Ah, then we are in agreement!
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
plink 12y ago