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The reason nice places like SF and NYC are so expensive is that nobody is trying to make more nice places. Tony Hsieh is doing a great thing to trying to make a

The reason nice places like SF and NYC are so expensive is that nobody is trying to make more nice places. Tony Hsieh is doing a great thing to trying to make a new nice place. It's too bad the blocks in Vegas are so large (looks like 380x480) and the streets so wide. It'll be really hard to ever make that appealing, especially given the climate.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
I think the problem is, no matter how nice you make new places, people are still going to want to be in those existing nice places. Megacities are the best example of the network effect.
wwweston 12y ago
> nobody is trying to make more nice places. One of the things I learned from an open-ended road trip around half the United States a while back is that there are lots of nice places... maybe more than there's actually time to see, apparently more than the number of slots most US citizens have in their head for Nice Places(TM). And I'm glad some of my favorites are off the mainstream map, because it means I can better afford real estate there (though for most of these the locals and local developers are making it more expensive anyway). It's arguable that some places offer unique levels of specific opportunities, and if SF and NY are like that for you, there's nothing wrong with choosing them. But there's a whole country of nice places between the two. > It's too bad the blocks in Vegas are so large (looks like 380x480) and the streets so wide. This is far from LV's biggest problem; well-subdivided blocks interspersed with good paths suitable for pedestrians and light vehicles could work out fine, keeping auto traffic proper at the periphery, maybe something people don't even have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
- antr 12y ago
  The "380x480" blocks comment reminds me of this talk by an urban planner on why people want to live in (European-like) cities, the grid layout seems to be a problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rUH63c1n0c&t=5m24s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rUH63c1n0c&t=5m24s
  - x0x0 12y ago
    that talk is fascinating for the illustration of employment density too, and this factoid: 43% of new yorkers live within 400m of a subway station
- AVTizzle 12y ago
  Great perspective. I'm curious... would you mind indulging us in a couple of said favorites that are off the mainstream radar?
- ghaff 12y ago
  Well, there are lots of Nice Places(TM) in the US but they're nice across an incredibly wide range of attributes. And the Nice Places I'd want to live in (to say nothing of be likely to get a job in or near) are a pretty subset of the Nice Places I enjoy visiting.
michaelchisari 12y ago
SF and NYC aren't near the nicest places in the US. The reason NYC and SF are so expensive is because of an inability to develop outward (or even upward in SF's case). Chicago is a fantastic city, with plenty that those cities have, and plenty more that they don't. And yet, a good portion of the neighborhoods have reasonable rent.
- cynicalkane 12y ago
  NYC is needlessly expensive but not by as much as you think. Building very dense cities is a thing that costs money, and if you look at very dense well-developed cities with good economies, only Hong Kong and Singapore come in as slightly cheaper. Most of the parts of NYC near the city center are so dense you need to build n-story mid-rise or high-rise condos if you want to add more people. That is expensive even if there were no political barriers.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    nyc is also helped once you realize you can get by with zero cars. Your transport cost is $112/mo for an unlimited metro card plus perhaps $100/mo for the odd cab. That replaces car payment, insurance, parking, gas, and repairs -- easily $400+/mo. Edit: and, distinctly contrary to sf, you won't miss a car. There is a food delivery culture: you may assume the vast majority of restaurants deliver. Seamless web is amazing. Groceries, gyms, dry cleaners, wash-and-folds, restaurants, and delis are so close to the majority of places you can live that you have no need for a vehicle.
    - xienze 12y ago
      > nyc is also helped once you realize you can get by with zero cars. Your transport cost is $112/mo for an unlimited metro card plus perhaps $100/mo for the odd cab. That replaces car payment, insurance, parking, gas, and repairs -- easily $400+/mo. Now consider the rent differential between NYC and any other "cars required" city in the US. There goes your $400 and then some...
      - 12y ago
mbillie1 12y ago
> It'll be really hard to ever make that appealing How about folks drinking beer on the street, the ceaseless outside speakers, and totally shameless flaunting of the sex trade on every corner? I'm not a prude, but there is something to be said for a little class. I didn't even notice the block/street size when I was there.
- joshuapants 12y ago
  Nothing wrong with drinking outdoors (though Vegas probably brings out the worst in it), but I agree with you on the rest.
- rodgerd 12y ago
  I didn't find the sex trade particularly off-putting my only time in Vegas; what I did find awful was the constant hustle and hard sell. The public transport actually seemed pretty good, and I would have been quite comfortable walking about if it weren't for people constantly, constantly in my face, trying to sell me something.

toomuchtodo 12y ago

I think the problem is, no matter how nice you make new places, people are still going to want to be in those existing nice places. Megacities are the best example of the network effect.

wwweston 12y ago

> nobody is trying to make more nice places. One of the things I learned from an open-ended road trip around half the United States a while back is that there are lots of nice places... maybe more than there's actually time to see, apparently more than the number of slots most US citizens have in their head for Nice Places(TM). And I'm glad some of my favorites are off the mainstream map, because it means I can better afford real estate there (though for most of these the locals and local developers are making it more expensive anyway). It's arguable that some places offer unique levels of specific opportunities, and if SF and NY are like that for you, there's nothing wrong with choosing them. But there's a whole country of nice places between the two. > It's too bad the blocks in Vegas are so large (looks like 380x480) and the streets so wide. This is far from LV's biggest problem; well-subdivided blocks interspersed with good paths suitable for pedestrians and light vehicles could work out fine, keeping auto traffic proper at the periphery, maybe something people don't even have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

antr 12y ago
The "380x480" blocks comment reminds me of this talk by an urban planner on why people want to live in (European-like) cities, the grid layout seems to be a problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rUH63c1n0c&t=5m24s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rUH63c1n0c&t=5m24s
- x0x0 12y ago
  that talk is fascinating for the illustration of employment density too, and this factoid: 43% of new yorkers live within 400m of a subway station
AVTizzle 12y ago
Great perspective. I'm curious... would you mind indulging us in a couple of said favorites that are off the mainstream radar?
ghaff 12y ago
Well, there are lots of Nice Places(TM) in the US but they're nice across an incredibly wide range of attributes. And the Nice Places I'd want to live in (to say nothing of be likely to get a job in or near) are a pretty subset of the Nice Places I enjoy visiting.

michaelchisari 12y ago

SF and NYC aren't near the nicest places in the US. The reason NYC and SF are so expensive is because of an inability to develop outward (or even upward in SF's case). Chicago is a fantastic city, with plenty that those cities have, and plenty more that they don't. And yet, a good portion of the neighborhoods have reasonable rent.

cynicalkane 12y ago
NYC is needlessly expensive but not by as much as you think. Building very dense cities is a thing that costs money, and if you look at very dense well-developed cities with good economies, only Hong Kong and Singapore come in as slightly cheaper. Most of the parts of NYC near the city center are so dense you need to build n-story mid-rise or high-rise condos if you want to add more people. That is expensive even if there were no political barriers.
- x0x0 12y ago
  nyc is also helped once you realize you can get by with zero cars. Your transport cost is $112/mo for an unlimited metro card plus perhaps $100/mo for the odd cab. That replaces car payment, insurance, parking, gas, and repairs -- easily $400+/mo. Edit: and, distinctly contrary to sf, you won't miss a car. There is a food delivery culture: you may assume the vast majority of restaurants deliver. Seamless web is amazing. Groceries, gyms, dry cleaners, wash-and-folds, restaurants, and delis are so close to the majority of places you can live that you have no need for a vehicle.
  - xienze 12y ago
    > nyc is also helped once you realize you can get by with zero cars. Your transport cost is $112/mo for an unlimited metro card plus perhaps $100/mo for the odd cab. That replaces car payment, insurance, parking, gas, and repairs -- easily $400+/mo. Now consider the rent differential between NYC and any other "cars required" city in the US. There goes your $400 and then some...
    - 12y ago

mbillie1 12y ago

> It'll be really hard to ever make that appealing How about folks drinking beer on the street, the ceaseless outside speakers, and totally shameless flaunting of the sex trade on every corner? I'm not a prude, but there is something to be said for a little class. I didn't even notice the block/street size when I was there.

joshuapants 12y ago
Nothing wrong with drinking outdoors (though Vegas probably brings out the worst in it), but I agree with you on the rest.
rodgerd 12y ago
I didn't find the sex trade particularly off-putting my only time in Vegas; what I did find awful was the constant hustle and hard sell. The public transport actually seemed pretty good, and I would have been quite comfortable walking about if it weren't for people constantly, constantly in my face, trying to sell me something.