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You’re thinking about how people are currently using their devices instead of thinking about how they will be. You could access your computer from any internet

You’re thinking about how people are currently using their devices instead of thinking about how they will be. You could access your computer from any internet connected device, anywhere. Hook up your oculus rift to their paperweight and have a full powered computer anywhere (with internet access). While they are mentioning you can use AutoCad, I'd say that is merely to show that it can handle intensive applications. The majority wants to be able to surf the internet, and with this, you would never need to buy another computer again. For the random times you need to run Photoshop it can do it and will scale up to it, other times it scales down to handle your reddit addiction. Look at how many people use Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive, etc etc. Everyone is already ok with storing their files in a datacenter. Privacy issues or not, people have accepted it is fact and the high majority already do it. That's not to say it is right, but it's a given that people want convenience over privacy. Buying a Macbook air costs around 1k. And most people seem to upgrade ever 4-6 years. This costs $10/month. The cost savings are blatant. I know I’m comparing it with a mac and they are overpriced and you could do so much better, blah blah blah. The fact is that if latency problems can be overcome, there is really no reason beside privacy that one needs to own and maintain their own computer. Rented space that you pay monthly for is cheaper, and will adapt to fit your specific needs. It works much better for a internet connected society to share several supercomputers then for individuals to each own their own.

walterbell 12y ago
If data provides competitive advantage, while compute is commoditized, there is no need for a false dichotomy between cloud and local. Future hybrid architecture can fluidly move the line between local and distributed compute, including other-peoples-algorithms, fusing local (secure, private, competitive, licensed) data/algos with public data/algos. Local storage and local compute continue to fall in cost. As long as humans remain sensitive to subsecond latency of repeated stimulus, and the speed of light remains unchanged, local user interfaces will offer competititve advantages.
- weland 12y ago
  > Future hybrid architecture can fluidly move the line between local and distributed compute, including other-peoples-algorithms, fusing local (secure, private, competitive, licensed) data/algos with public data/algos. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy graybeard, it's impressive how all of these things have been implemented at least in Plan 9 for almost twenty years now.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    Thanks for the pointer. Could you recommend any Plan9 docs on these features? Are Plan9 users mostly running on bare-metal or VMs? If the latter, would you recommend VMware, Xen or something else?
    - weland 12y ago
      Ah, crap, I saw your reply only now :(. The Plan 9 documentation is pretty good, but 9front's introductory documents ( https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/fqa https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/fqa ) are probably a little better to get your feet wet with. > Are Plan9 users mostly running on bare-metal or VMs? If the latter, would you recommend VMware, Xen or something else? Both, I guess... VirtualBox is the only one I tried it on. Its distributed nature makes it fairly easy to run it on a server and connect to that from a system running Plan 9 from User Space (see http://swtch.com/plan9port/ http://swtch.com/plan9port/ ), so that you also get a... well, a functional desktop, I guess.
weland 12y ago
> You’re thinking about how people are currently using their devices instead of thinking about how they will be. You could access your computer from any internet connected device, anywhere. No, I'm thinking about how people are going to be using their devices. One of the advantages this approach touts is that you can have a generic, cheap machine, and just rent something more powerful when you need it. CAD is the obvious example (which they are giving, not me!) about why this can't really be done: you'll need a fast display and a lot of processing power just to run the browser in the first place (which, with Firefox and Chrome as reference, kind of discards anything older than 4 years anyway), and then you're going to need specific input devices, so it won't really be "any" computer. Why do you think there were CAD workstations even in the 80s and early 90s, which were the bloody heyday of thin clients and distributed apps? Turns out that, when 80% of the price of the device is due to the graphics cards and monitors, slapping RAM and a hard drive on it makes a lot of things easier. > Hook up your oculus rift to their paperweight and have a full powered computer anywhere (with internet access). And what exactly is going to render things for the Oculus Rift? I'm pretty sure you need a computer for that as well! > While they are mentioning you can use AutoCad, I'd say that is merely to show that it can handle intensive applications. We have known that intensive applications can be used over a network for at least thirty years. I'm not surprised. What I haven't seen yet -- and this project does not seem to address -- is ways in which these applications can be low- (or at least constant-)latency or how remote storage can simultaneously be secure, private and permanently accessible. I've used networked applications over network a lot faster than the 15 Mbps that Paperspace recommends. Experiencing that over the Oculus Rift makes me nauseous just by thinking about it :). > The majority wants to be able to surf the internet, and with this, you would never need to buy another computer again. I doubt it. It's going to be the same 4-6 years before the old Paperspace One will stop being able to keep up with the higher-resolution, more bandwidth-demanding applications (even if they're executed remotely) and you'll have to upgrade to Paperspace Two. The "just wants to surf the Internet" majority would benefit a lot more from fixing web browsers. > Look at how many people use Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive, etc etc. Everyone is already ok with storing their files in a datacenter. Privacy issues or not, people have accepted it is fact and the high majority already do it. That's not to say it is right, but it's a given that people want convenience over privacy. I'm not questioning that -- and I'm not questioning the business model of Paperspace. I'm questioning the actual value that it delivers to users -- I'm not questioning the fact that they're willing to pay for it. > The fact is that if latency problems can be overcome I think we're optimistically 10 years away from that :). Given the circlejerk happening in telecom and software development circles (especially the slower ones), I think we're a good twenty years before that kind of latency becomes feasible for full-screen, full-color, multimedia-oriented applications under this execution model.
tenser 12y ago
I disagree with the "Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive" thing. Nobody is using them as a platform to work their files on, but more as a quick way of sharing files. not reliable to store or else.
- wanderingstan 12y ago
  Definitely not "nobody". I've had several clients where the dropbox folder was where work got done. For all of my non-git and non-movie projects, dropbox is where the files live and are worked on. When a friend had his laptop stolen he said that it wasn't a big deal other than the money lost, as 90% of his files were in dropbox or Google drive. In my world at least, this is the way the wind is blowing.
- weland 12y ago
  Oh, were that be true! I've seen stuff covered under bloody NDAs being carelessly shoved into Dropbox or Google drive. No one serious about their work is using them as a platform to work their files on, but they are used for that.
CamperBob2 12y ago
weland, your comment is [dead], not clear why.
spc476 12y ago
I can access my computer (computers, actually, all at home) now, from any internet connected device, anywhere. My "laptop" is an iPad with a keyboard, and with that, I can do remotely what I can do locally. It's just as convenient [1], no recurring charge and if the government (or law enforcement) ever becomes interested in my data, I'll have a chance to know about it, since my data resides at my house, not some company half a continent away. [1] Nearly so---for me, there's no true replacement for an IBM model M keyboard.

walterbell 12y ago

If data provides competitive advantage, while compute is commoditized, there is no need for a false dichotomy between cloud and local. Future hybrid architecture can fluidly move the line between local and distributed compute, including other-peoples-algorithms, fusing local (secure, private, competitive, licensed) data/algos with public data/algos. Local storage and local compute continue to fall in cost. As long as humans remain sensitive to subsecond latency of repeated stimulus, and the speed of light remains unchanged, local user interfaces will offer competititve advantages.

weland 12y ago
> Future hybrid architecture can fluidly move the line between local and distributed compute, including other-peoples-algorithms, fusing local (secure, private, competitive, licensed) data/algos with public data/algos. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy graybeard, it's impressive how all of these things have been implemented at least in Plan 9 for almost twenty years now.
- walterbell 12y ago
  Thanks for the pointer. Could you recommend any Plan9 docs on these features? Are Plan9 users mostly running on bare-metal or VMs? If the latter, would you recommend VMware, Xen or something else?
  - weland 12y ago
    Ah, crap, I saw your reply only now :(. The Plan 9 documentation is pretty good, but 9front's introductory documents ( https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/fqa https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/fqa ) are probably a little better to get your feet wet with. > Are Plan9 users mostly running on bare-metal or VMs? If the latter, would you recommend VMware, Xen or something else? Both, I guess... VirtualBox is the only one I tried it on. Its distributed nature makes it fairly easy to run it on a server and connect to that from a system running Plan 9 from User Space (see http://swtch.com/plan9port/ http://swtch.com/plan9port/ ), so that you also get a... well, a functional desktop, I guess.

weland 12y ago

> You’re thinking about how people are currently using their devices instead of thinking about how they will be. You could access your computer from any internet connected device, anywhere. No, I'm thinking about how people are going to be using their devices. One of the advantages this approach touts is that you can have a generic, cheap machine, and just rent something more powerful when you need it. CAD is the obvious example (which they are giving, not me!) about why this can't really be done: you'll need a fast display and a lot of processing power just to run the browser in the first place (which, with Firefox and Chrome as reference, kind of discards anything older than 4 years anyway), and then you're going to need specific input devices, so it won't really be "any" computer. Why do you think there were CAD workstations even in the 80s and early 90s, which were the bloody heyday of thin clients and distributed apps? Turns out that, when 80% of the price of the device is due to the graphics cards and monitors, slapping RAM and a hard drive on it makes a lot of things easier. > Hook up your oculus rift to their paperweight and have a full powered computer anywhere (with internet access). And what exactly is going to render things for the Oculus Rift? I'm pretty sure you need a computer for that as well! > While they are mentioning you can use AutoCad, I'd say that is merely to show that it can handle intensive applications. We have known that intensive applications can be used over a network for at least thirty years. I'm not surprised. What I haven't seen yet -- and this project does not seem to address -- is ways in which these applications can be low- (or at least constant-)latency or how remote storage can simultaneously be secure, private and permanently accessible. I've used networked applications over network a lot faster than the 15 Mbps that Paperspace recommends. Experiencing that over the Oculus Rift makes me nauseous just by thinking about it :). > The majority wants to be able to surf the internet, and with this, you would never need to buy another computer again. I doubt it. It's going to be the same 4-6 years before the old Paperspace One will stop being able to keep up with the higher-resolution, more bandwidth-demanding applications (even if they're executed remotely) and you'll have to upgrade to Paperspace Two. The "just wants to surf the Internet" majority would benefit a lot more from fixing web browsers. > Look at how many people use Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive, etc etc. Everyone is already ok with storing their files in a datacenter. Privacy issues or not, people have accepted it is fact and the high majority already do it. That's not to say it is right, but it's a given that people want convenience over privacy. I'm not questioning that -- and I'm not questioning the business model of Paperspace. I'm questioning the actual value that it delivers to users -- I'm not questioning the fact that they're willing to pay for it. > The fact is that if latency problems can be overcome I think we're optimistically 10 years away from that :). Given the circlejerk happening in telecom and software development circles (especially the slower ones), I think we're a good twenty years before that kind of latency becomes feasible for full-screen, full-color, multimedia-oriented applications under this execution model.

tenser 12y ago

I disagree with the "Dropbox, iCloud, Google drive" thing. Nobody is using them as a platform to work their files on, but more as a quick way of sharing files. not reliable to store or else.

wanderingstan 12y ago
Definitely not "nobody". I've had several clients where the dropbox folder was where work got done. For all of my non-git and non-movie projects, dropbox is where the files live and are worked on. When a friend had his laptop stolen he said that it wasn't a big deal other than the money lost, as 90% of his files were in dropbox or Google drive. In my world at least, this is the way the wind is blowing.
weland 12y ago
Oh, were that be true! I've seen stuff covered under bloody NDAs being carelessly shoved into Dropbox or Google drive. No one serious about their work is using them as a platform to work their files on, but they are used for that.

CamperBob2 12y ago

weland, your comment is [dead], not clear why.

spc476 12y ago

I can access my computer (computers, actually, all at home) now, from any internet connected device, anywhere. My "laptop" is an iPad with a keyboard, and with that, I can do remotely what I can do locally. It's just as convenient [1], no recurring charge and if the government (or law enforcement) ever becomes interested in my data, I'll have a chance to know about it, since my data resides at my house, not some company half a continent away. [1] Nearly so---for me, there's no true replacement for an IBM model M keyboard.