4 ms·

>I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "dudes are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a pla

>I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "dudes are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a place for women too." Since things are the way that they are its wonderful that you feel that way. Personally, it smacks as a bit sexist for organizations to say to me 'we created this program to get women into things' because it reads to me like them saying "we created this program to get women into things because they can't hack it any way else". That's how minority outreach programs read to me as a woman of color. >I respect your stance and your viewpoint, but I think you're worrying about folks who don't need much worrying done on their behalf. If you've read my posts as "but what about the menz?!" (as I hear often) then I'm afraid that it looks like you're being reductionist. My position on this issue is both a combination of my lived experience having never felt discrimination in the tech community while simultaneously watching several of my equally qualified colleagues be denied opportunity through no fault of their own because somebody thought I deserved a better shot so their percentages looked better.

eropple 12y ago
> That's how minority outreach programs read to me as a woman of color. I am 100% hearing you, and I understand how you get to that position. Here's where my head's at: if, as a culture, we think that diversity of self, thought, and action matter, then we have two options. One, which I think is relying on the better angels of natures that haven't proven to have them, is a sea change of culture where the usual bullshit is not tolerated, the casual sexism that I've heard (and objected to, and become the No Fun Guy for) amongst just-us-guys is stamped out. The other is to facilitate a demographic shift, to offer early, supportive services (I mean, even internship programs are fairly introductory). I tend to see these programs as doing the latter towards a goal I find to be a net positive and, additionally, beneficial to me, in the long run. I understand the potentially problematic nature of such programs and I think it's important for folks to keep those potential issues in mind, but I disagree with you in calling these programs, the ones that I am personally aware of, problematic in that way. > If you've read my posts as "but what about the menz?!" (as I hear often) then I'm afraid that it looks like you're being reductionist. That wasn't my read, and "worrying" was flip, I apologize. Let me try again: I come at solving social issues from an economic point of view; while it's not zero-sum, something's got to give to get things moving and to make the multipliers work. In the aggregate, I find it very unlikely that white dudes are going to have problems finding opportunities. And so, I, personally, am okay with making that trade and theoretically (but, I continue to think, probably not really) causing low-level harm to a few folks in a privileged position in the pursuit of a better end state for everyone. And I respect that you haven't felt discrimination in the tech community. I'm glad you've had better experiences than the folks I know, and whose experiences have soured me on a lot of what I see as the insular nature of tech. In particular I am thinking of two of my dearest friends, two of the most level-headed people I know, who exited stage right because the trouble of being a visible member of outgroups wasn't worth the benefits of working in tech. That irks the shit out of me, and I want it to stop. (It's with this in mind that I try to put into practice what I say, and a major red flag for me is a homogeneous development group. I want to work with people unlike me, because in the long run it's better for me, too.) > several of my equally qualified colleagues be denied opportunity through no fault of their own because somebody thought I deserved a better shot so their percentages looked better Can I flip this around for a second? Because I don't think these feelings are restricted to a single "side" of anything. I've seen candidates lose out because they're not enough like the pack of white dudes doing the hiring decisions, too, and I'm certain I've benefitted from those same things too. You don't want to benefit unduly, and I respect that. But neither do I, you know?
- eropple 12y ago
  Also, @patzerhacker, I'd be interested in talking about this offline if you're up for it (there's no email in your profile). My user page has the usual ways to get in touch.
nemo 12y ago
>it reads to me like them saying "we created this program to get women into things because they can't hack it any way else". While you might feel that way about it when you see it, it's neither the reason for nor the intent of the groups running the programs. There are a lot of real and ugly issues that exist that keep women (and minorities) out of the tech industry and push them out that have nothing to do with the qualifications or abilities of anyone. Trying to increase opportunity to help balance the actual institutional sexism, racism, unconscious biases, hostile environments, and other factors that keep valid candidates out of tech isn't sexist or racist, they are an effort to counter the effects of sexism and racism and bring more people in who are just as qualified, capable, and talented but who despite those factors have added barriers to entry and added pressures to push them out. Those core problems can't really be addressed until there's enough diversity.
codygman 12y ago
> Personally, it smacks as a bit sexist for organizations to say to me 'we created this program to get women into things' because it reads to me like them saying "we created this program to get women into things because they can't hack it any way else". That's how minority outreach programs read to me as a woman of color. First off: "because they (Women)" can't hack it any way else" puts the blame on the wrong party. The fault is that of society, not of Women. It reminds me of how a family member blamed me for the problems that arose my current relationship with a black woman. "Didn't you think of how getting in a relationship with a black girl would affect your family?" At first I wondered if this was a valid viewpoint, but I quickly realized that the blame was pushed to the wrong party. It wasn't my fault that the family member had a network of (consciously and unconsciously) racist people they called their friends. So all fault is that of the sexist, racist, homgeneous reality of the tech community that exists now. Women (even moreso Women of Color) "can't hack it like a white male would". Technically speaking, any woman can "hack it" just as much as any man could or more. Sadly I've found that getting jobs is very little to do with technical aptitude these days however. It's more about people thinking they'll communicate well with you (looking like them makes them think this), that you'll share their ideals to some extent (they think looking like them means this), you'll be technically adept (looking like them is of course a plus), and get along well with the other colleagues (looking like them is a plus). I'm sure you've heard the term "work twice as hard to get half as far before". Well these events exist to try and redefine that to "work twice as hard to get just as far", then maybe even eventually "work 1.5x as hard to get just as far". > My position on this issue is both a combination of my lived experience having never felt discrimination in the tech community There is possibly colorism at play here too, at least anecdotally speaking my Biracial friends seem to corroborate your viewpoint of "never felt discrimination". I've personally witnessed discrimination and racism in most of the places I've worked, but just as much I've seen sexism.
codygman 12y ago
> My position on this issue is both a combination of my lived experience having never felt discrimination in the tech community So something that just happened, I was looking through local meetups and the second picture was a white dude with a HUGE oversized afro and headphones on... if you came upon this wouldn't you find it a little unwelcoming? I know I personally do.

eropple 12y ago

> That's how minority outreach programs read to me as a woman of color. I am 100% hearing you, and I understand how you get to that position. Here's where my head's at: if, as a culture, we think that diversity of self, thought, and action matter, then we have two options. One, which I think is relying on the better angels of natures that haven't proven to have them, is a sea change of culture where the usual bullshit is not tolerated, the casual sexism that I've heard (and objected to, and become the No Fun Guy for) amongst just-us-guys is stamped out. The other is to facilitate a demographic shift, to offer early, supportive services (I mean, even internship programs are fairly introductory). I tend to see these programs as doing the latter towards a goal I find to be a net positive and, additionally, beneficial to me, in the long run. I understand the potentially problematic nature of such programs and I think it's important for folks to keep those potential issues in mind, but I disagree with you in calling these programs, the ones that I am personally aware of, problematic in that way. > If you've read my posts as "but what about the menz?!" (as I hear often) then I'm afraid that it looks like you're being reductionist. That wasn't my read, and "worrying" was flip, I apologize. Let me try again: I come at solving social issues from an economic point of view; while it's not zero-sum, something's got to give to get things moving and to make the multipliers work. In the aggregate, I find it very unlikely that white dudes are going to have problems finding opportunities. And so, I, personally, am okay with making that trade and theoretically (but, I continue to think, probably not really) causing low-level harm to a few folks in a privileged position in the pursuit of a better end state for everyone. And I respect that you haven't felt discrimination in the tech community. I'm glad you've had better experiences than the folks I know, and whose experiences have soured me on a lot of what I see as the insular nature of tech. In particular I am thinking of two of my dearest friends, two of the most level-headed people I know, who exited stage right because the trouble of being a visible member of outgroups wasn't worth the benefits of working in tech. That irks the shit out of me, and I want it to stop. (It's with this in mind that I try to put into practice what I say, and a major red flag for me is a homogeneous development group. I want to work with people unlike me, because in the long run it's better for me, too.) > several of my equally qualified colleagues be denied opportunity through no fault of their own because somebody thought I deserved a better shot so their percentages looked better Can I flip this around for a second? Because I don't think these feelings are restricted to a single "side" of anything. I've seen candidates lose out because they're not enough like the pack of white dudes doing the hiring decisions, too, and I'm certain I've benefitted from those same things too. You don't want to benefit unduly, and I respect that. But neither do I, you know?

eropple 12y ago
Also, @patzerhacker, I'd be interested in talking about this offline if you're up for it (there's no email in your profile). My user page has the usual ways to get in touch.

nemo 12y ago

>it reads to me like them saying "we created this program to get women into things because they can't hack it any way else". While you might feel that way about it when you see it, it's neither the reason for nor the intent of the groups running the programs. There are a lot of real and ugly issues that exist that keep women (and minorities) out of the tech industry and push them out that have nothing to do with the qualifications or abilities of anyone. Trying to increase opportunity to help balance the actual institutional sexism, racism, unconscious biases, hostile environments, and other factors that keep valid candidates out of tech isn't sexist or racist, they are an effort to counter the effects of sexism and racism and bring more people in who are just as qualified, capable, and talented but who despite those factors have added barriers to entry and added pressures to push them out. Those core problems can't really be addressed until there's enough diversity.

codygman 12y ago

> Personally, it smacks as a bit sexist for organizations to say to me 'we created this program to get women into things' because it reads to me like them saying "we created this program to get women into things because they can't hack it any way else". That's how minority outreach programs read to me as a woman of color. First off: "because they (Women)" can't hack it any way else" puts the blame on the wrong party. The fault is that of society, not of Women. It reminds me of how a family member blamed me for the problems that arose my current relationship with a black woman. "Didn't you think of how getting in a relationship with a black girl would affect your family?" At first I wondered if this was a valid viewpoint, but I quickly realized that the blame was pushed to the wrong party. It wasn't my fault that the family member had a network of (consciously and unconsciously) racist people they called their friends. So all fault is that of the sexist, racist, homgeneous reality of the tech community that exists now. Women (even moreso Women of Color) "can't hack it like a white male would". Technically speaking, any woman can "hack it" just as much as any man could or more. Sadly I've found that getting jobs is very little to do with technical aptitude these days however. It's more about people thinking they'll communicate well with you (looking like them makes them think this), that you'll share their ideals to some extent (they think looking like them means this), you'll be technically adept (looking like them is of course a plus), and get along well with the other colleagues (looking like them is a plus). I'm sure you've heard the term "work twice as hard to get half as far before". Well these events exist to try and redefine that to "work twice as hard to get just as far", then maybe even eventually "work 1.5x as hard to get just as far". > My position on this issue is both a combination of my lived experience having never felt discrimination in the tech community There is possibly colorism at play here too, at least anecdotally speaking my Biracial friends seem to corroborate your viewpoint of "never felt discrimination". I've personally witnessed discrimination and racism in most of the places I've worked, but just as much I've seen sexism.

codygman 12y ago

> My position on this issue is both a combination of my lived experience having never felt discrimination in the tech community So something that just happened, I was looking through local meetups and the second picture was a white dude with a HUGE oversized afro and headphones on... if you came upon this wouldn't you find it a little unwelcoming? I know I personally do.