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"The problem with your argument is that there are huge sections of human knowledge in which we really don't know that much -- even experts. In fact, I'd wager t

by bendotc 17y ago

"The problem with your argument is that there are huge sections of human knowledge in which we really don't know that much -- even experts. In fact, I'd wager there's a hell of a lot more stuff that's debatable than most people would be comfortable knowing about." I don't see how this is a problem with my argument. I didn't claim that we should only discuss things about which we have complete information, I was instead suggesting that this community is so information-poor on this subject that we lack the tools to separate right from wrong or reasonable from unreasonable. I was also objecting to the claim of opinion as fact, which I find misleads (usually unintentionally, as often these opinions are believed to be fact). And to be clear, I'm not talking about us not being steeped in theoretical economics, but rather that most of us couldn't answer questions which have factual, discoverable answers, such as how modern banking works, how money is created, what the role and powers of the Federal Reserve are, etc. These are questions with real, factual answers, but the way these things work is often incredibly complex and counterintuitive, and cannot be gleaned from a couple hours with an introductory book or Wikipedia. And in case I'm coming across as being condescending, I'd just like to say that I don't consider myself to be an economist and I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to be an expert at everything. "I've said it before: I don't think any topics should be off-limits as long as people can reasonably discuss them." Agreed, and I have seen very few reasonable discussions of economics around here. "Startups are full of people acting under intense pressure with incomplete information. As such, these topics are just little baby toys, artificial constructs of arguments that have little real impact on people's lives." So, we may as well be debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. "Being able to have reasonable conversations about emotional and important things with incomplete information is something we should all strive for, not something we should be afraid of." And forming or refining beliefs in the absence of information is something we should be afraid of, not strive for.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
And forming or refining beliefs in the absence of information is something we should be afraid of I think this gets to the heart of our differences. I don't know things, so I ask people. Or I take up positions which others can criticize. As part of a discussion, I learn more. If modern banking practices are germane, educate me on them. You, I think, seem to feel that there is some threshold of knowledge that one must reach in order to talk reasonably about something. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that more information is better than less, but that doesn't give me the freedom to not act on things. I learn by both conversing and experimentation. There is a concept called "strong opinions, weakly held" You might want to look into it. As a side note, the internet is full of folks spouting off about things they know little about. So is life. Democracy is built on the concept of average voters voting on policies about complicated matters. Either learn to deal with these topics as part and parcel of community life or prepare to be frustrated a lot.
- bendotc 17y ago
  "I think this gets to the heart of our differences. I don't know things, so I ask people. Or I take up positions which others can criticize. As part of a discussion, I learn more. If modern banking practices are germane, educate me on them." "There is a concept called 'strong opinions, weakly held' You might want to look into it." These are fine methods of learning when you're surrounded by people significantly more knowledgeable than yourself. The problem is precisely the situation I was discussing: when you don't have a critical mass of knowledgeable people, it's the blind leading the blind, and thanks to the Dunning-Krueger effect, it's unlikely that you'll be able to tell who among the chorus of voices knows what they're talking about, and may even have trouble recognizing that you're going down the wrong path. "As a side note, the internet is full of folks spouting off about things they know little about. So is life. Democracy is built on the concept of average voters voting on policies about complicated matters." And direct democracy isn't terribly prevalent. Representative democracy, however, is based on electing representatives who are either themselves more knowledgeable or who can talk to (or employ) those who are on a whole range of subjects. And even on this count, I would argue we generally need to work on finding ways around our biases to make better selections. "Either learn to deal with these topics as part and parcel of community life or prepare to be frustrated a lot." You think my options are "live with it" or "be frustrated?" I choose the third option, to advocate for improvement, to advocate for greater education where it makes sense in the public sphere (such as economics), and to advocate for systems of government that are more resistant to direct action on matters that are likely to be adversely affected by common misunderstandings.
  - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
    You think my options are "live with it" or "be frustrated?" I choose the third option, to advocate for improvement Then you've chosen my second choice, living with it. Advocating for improvement is exercising your options to participate in the conversation, even if your participation only amounts to acknowledging our collective lack of knowledge. Isn't it great that reasonable people can discuss things that are complicated? Think of how many intractable problems have been solved because people were too stupid not to know they were insolvable? Expertise is easy -- you can rent it when you need it. Highly-effective teams working tough problems are not easy. It's perfectly legitimate to say something along the lines of "hey, we're sadly lacking in knowledge here, and here are the steps we should take to improve things" but that is a just another form of participation.

by bendotc 17y ago

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

And forming or refining beliefs in the absence of information is something we should be afraid of I think this gets to the heart of our differences. I don't know things, so I ask people. Or I take up positions which others can criticize. As part of a discussion, I learn more. If modern banking practices are germane, educate me on them. You, I think, seem to feel that there is some threshold of knowledge that one must reach in order to talk reasonably about something. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that more information is better than less, but that doesn't give me the freedom to not act on things. I learn by both conversing and experimentation. There is a concept called "strong opinions, weakly held" You might want to look into it. As a side note, the internet is full of folks spouting off about things they know little about. So is life. Democracy is built on the concept of average voters voting on policies about complicated matters. Either learn to deal with these topics as part and parcel of community life or prepare to be frustrated a lot.

bendotc 17y ago
"I think this gets to the heart of our differences. I don't know things, so I ask people. Or I take up positions which others can criticize. As part of a discussion, I learn more. If modern banking practices are germane, educate me on them." "There is a concept called 'strong opinions, weakly held' You might want to look into it." These are fine methods of learning when you're surrounded by people significantly more knowledgeable than yourself. The problem is precisely the situation I was discussing: when you don't have a critical mass of knowledgeable people, it's the blind leading the blind, and thanks to the Dunning-Krueger effect, it's unlikely that you'll be able to tell who among the chorus of voices knows what they're talking about, and may even have trouble recognizing that you're going down the wrong path. "As a side note, the internet is full of folks spouting off about things they know little about. So is life. Democracy is built on the concept of average voters voting on policies about complicated matters." And direct democracy isn't terribly prevalent. Representative democracy, however, is based on electing representatives who are either themselves more knowledgeable or who can talk to (or employ) those who are on a whole range of subjects. And even on this count, I would argue we generally need to work on finding ways around our biases to make better selections. "Either learn to deal with these topics as part and parcel of community life or prepare to be frustrated a lot." You think my options are "live with it" or "be frustrated?" I choose the third option, to advocate for improvement, to advocate for greater education where it makes sense in the public sphere (such as economics), and to advocate for systems of government that are more resistant to direct action on matters that are likely to be adversely affected by common misunderstandings.
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  You think my options are "live with it" or "be frustrated?" I choose the third option, to advocate for improvement Then you've chosen my second choice, living with it. Advocating for improvement is exercising your options to participate in the conversation, even if your participation only amounts to acknowledging our collective lack of knowledge. Isn't it great that reasonable people can discuss things that are complicated? Think of how many intractable problems have been solved because people were too stupid not to know they were insolvable? Expertise is easy -- you can rent it when you need it. Highly-effective teams working tough problems are not easy. It's perfectly legitimate to say something along the lines of "hey, we're sadly lacking in knowledge here, and here are the steps we should take to improve things" but that is a just another form of participation.