8 ms·

Nor GNU Octave, but this makes me kind of glad. We have enough donation money to sponsor a student of our own. I think we might do it through the Outreach Progr

by jordigh 12y ago

Nor GNU Octave, but this makes me kind of glad. We have enough donation money to sponsor a student of our own. I think we might do it through the Outreach Programme for Women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Source_Software_Outreach_Program_for_Women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Source_Software_...

patzerhacker 12y ago
>I think we might do it through the Outreach Programme for Women. Because nothing says "I'm for gender equality" quite like a "boys not allowed!" sign.
- jordigh 12y ago
  Sigh, this again... I'll reply, against my better judgement. Boys are plenty allowed everywhere else. They're allowed in GSoC, just as the girls are. However, the gender inequality is already staggering in favour of boys. Having a tiny programme with 40 female students allowed instead of the hundreds (thousands?) of mostly boys in GSoC does not mean that the horrible women are out to destroy all manhood. Or in the words of HN favourite Julia Evans, "women-only spaces are a hack": https://medium.com/@b0rk/women-only-spaces-are-a-hack-a548c1ed6728 https://medium.com/@b0rk/women-only-spaces-are-a-hack-a548c1...
  - patzerhacker 12y ago
    Before I compose this reply I want to mention that I'm a woman of color in case anybody needs to do a privilege check to see if it's okay for me to speak on this issue or whether it's acceptable to silence me because I'm "obviously" a white cis het male. >The gender inequality is already staggering in favour of boys. Serious question: Do you think this is a conscious choice made by those in the tech field? I ask because my lived experience is different than that, and yes, it's a serious question even though my response may have been flippant above. >Having a tiny programme with 40 students allowed instead of the hundreds (thousands?) of GSoC does not mean that the horrible women are out to destroy all manhood. That's not what I said at all. I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion.
    - dethstar 12y ago
      >I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion. The link the person you replied to posted seems to explain just that.
      - patzerhacker 12y ago
        The position taken in that link is completely and utterly sexist, and here's why. There are many in the hacker community with varying forms of social anxiety who are not comfortable around anybody of the opposite sex. Does that mean that segregation for the comfort of everybody is the solution, or the "hack" to get us to a better place? We'll never get to a better place if we exclude those things that make us uncomfortable. I dare you suggest a men-only hacker convention because women make some men feel uncomfortable. Let me know how that goes. Before it's brought up, yes, we should exclude from our lives things that are dangerous, but just discomfort is a terrible reason to exclude something from your life.
    - jordigh 12y ago
      > I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion. b0rk addresses this in the post above. In the case of GSoC, I expect it's not so much about harrassment but intimidation. When there's nothing but boys doing something, many girls think to themselves, "this is not something a girl like me should be doing." Btw, why do you consider yourself such a patzer? I do hope it has nothing to do with your gender or skin tone, and that it's just a harmless joke.
      - patzerhacker 12y ago
        >b0rk addresses this in the post above. And makes a completely sexist hash of it. Just suggest that because there are some male hackers that are uncomfortable around women that there should be man-only events. Let me know how that goes for you. >When there's nothing but boys doing something, many girls think to themselves, "this is not something a girl like me should be doing." It's not just boys and men in the tech community, as anybody who would expend five seconds looking at the subject would see. We champion people like Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper. >Btw, why do you consider yourself such a patzer? I do hope it has nothing to do with your gender or skin tone, and that it's just a harmless joke. Do me a favor next time you want to make a comment like this - Google the term you're referring to. A patzer is somebody who lacks skill at chess. It's not a racist or sexist term. I just happen to be awful at chess (and much better at Go).
  - mhogomchungu 12y ago
    > Sigh, this again... I'll reply, against my better judgement. a better judgment was to not bring up a controversial topic,not to bring it up and then not engage with those who are on the opposite side of the controversy.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  Have you read the "Parable of the Polygons"[0]? It completely changed my opinion about positive discrimination. ———— 0. http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/
  - patzerhacker 12y ago
    One person's positive discrimination is another person's negative discrimination. Negative discrimination is seen by those its applied to as punishment. In their mind punishing someone for something that they had no hand in is a terrible technique to engineer a society and usually only leads to a backlash. Further, it's easy to model what society should look like and how it should act by reducing it to mathematical models, but human behavior is not strictly dominated by mathematics.
    - eropple 12y ago
      Personally speaking, as the kind of white guy who, nine years ago or so, should have in theory been being negatively affected by programs like this, I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "dudes are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a place for women too." I respect your stance and your viewpoint, but I think you're worrying about folks who don't need much worrying done on their behalf. We dudes will be just fine without being the implicit focus of every place we go.
      - 12394344131 12y ago
        Personally speaking, as the kind of black woman who, nine years ago or so, should have in theory been being negatively affected by male culture like this, I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "women are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a place for men too." I respect your stance and your viewpoint, but I think you're worrying about folks who don't need much worrying done on their behalf. We women will be just fine without being the implicit focus of every place we go. See how that sounds. EDIT: Please, kindly, don't speak for the entirety of your gender. Nor for the opposite gender. Don't speak in absolutes, just speak for yourself, thanks.
- Double_Cast 12y ago
  Do you mind if I pick your brain? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts (more than just what you disagree with) and why. E.g. Do you think institutional discrimination exists? Do you think it affects some but not others? Do you think these types of programs help minorities? Do you think they actually hurt minorities? Do you think these programs don't have any effect except to offend minorities? Do you think these programs help some and hurt others? If institutional discrimination exists, should we encourage minorities to integrate with the rest rather than segregate? Should we fight the subconscious component with awareness rather than affirmative action? Should we do nothing? (I'm not trying to be combative.)

by jordigh 12y ago

patzerhacker 12y ago

>I think we might do it through the Outreach Programme for Women. Because nothing says "I'm for gender equality" quite like a "boys not allowed!" sign.

jordigh 12y ago
Sigh, this again... I'll reply, against my better judgement. Boys are plenty allowed everywhere else. They're allowed in GSoC, just as the girls are. However, the gender inequality is already staggering in favour of boys. Having a tiny programme with 40 female students allowed instead of the hundreds (thousands?) of mostly boys in GSoC does not mean that the horrible women are out to destroy all manhood. Or in the words of HN favourite Julia Evans, "women-only spaces are a hack": https://medium.com/@b0rk/women-only-spaces-are-a-hack-a548c1ed6728 https://medium.com/@b0rk/women-only-spaces-are-a-hack-a548c1...
- patzerhacker 12y ago
  Before I compose this reply I want to mention that I'm a woman of color in case anybody needs to do a privilege check to see if it's okay for me to speak on this issue or whether it's acceptable to silence me because I'm "obviously" a white cis het male. >The gender inequality is already staggering in favour of boys. Serious question: Do you think this is a conscious choice made by those in the tech field? I ask because my lived experience is different than that, and yes, it's a serious question even though my response may have been flippant above. >Having a tiny programme with 40 students allowed instead of the hundreds (thousands?) of GSoC does not mean that the horrible women are out to destroy all manhood. That's not what I said at all. I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion.
  - dethstar 12y ago
    >I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion. The link the person you replied to posted seems to explain just that.
    - patzerhacker 12y ago
      The position taken in that link is completely and utterly sexist, and here's why. There are many in the hacker community with varying forms of social anxiety who are not comfortable around anybody of the opposite sex. Does that mean that segregation for the comfort of everybody is the solution, or the "hack" to get us to a better place? We'll never get to a better place if we exclude those things that make us uncomfortable. I dare you suggest a men-only hacker convention because women make some men feel uncomfortable. Let me know how that goes. Before it's brought up, yes, we should exclude from our lives things that are dangerous, but just discomfort is a terrible reason to exclude something from your life.
  - jordigh 12y ago
    > I'm asking why champions of gender equality seem to favor the tactic of exclusion. b0rk addresses this in the post above. In the case of GSoC, I expect it's not so much about harrassment but intimidation. When there's nothing but boys doing something, many girls think to themselves, "this is not something a girl like me should be doing." Btw, why do you consider yourself such a patzer? I do hope it has nothing to do with your gender or skin tone, and that it's just a harmless joke.
    - patzerhacker 12y ago
      >b0rk addresses this in the post above. And makes a completely sexist hash of it. Just suggest that because there are some male hackers that are uncomfortable around women that there should be man-only events. Let me know how that goes for you. >When there's nothing but boys doing something, many girls think to themselves, "this is not something a girl like me should be doing." It's not just boys and men in the tech community, as anybody who would expend five seconds looking at the subject would see. We champion people like Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper. >Btw, why do you consider yourself such a patzer? I do hope it has nothing to do with your gender or skin tone, and that it's just a harmless joke. Do me a favor next time you want to make a comment like this - Google the term you're referring to. A patzer is somebody who lacks skill at chess. It's not a racist or sexist term. I just happen to be awful at chess (and much better at Go).
- mhogomchungu 12y ago
  > Sigh, this again... I'll reply, against my better judgement. a better judgment was to not bring up a controversial topic,not to bring it up and then not engage with those who are on the opposite side of the controversy.
pygy_ 12y ago
Have you read the "Parable of the Polygons"[0]? It completely changed my opinion about positive discrimination. ———— 0. http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/
- patzerhacker 12y ago
  One person's positive discrimination is another person's negative discrimination. Negative discrimination is seen by those its applied to as punishment. In their mind punishing someone for something that they had no hand in is a terrible technique to engineer a society and usually only leads to a backlash. Further, it's easy to model what society should look like and how it should act by reducing it to mathematical models, but human behavior is not strictly dominated by mathematics.
  - eropple 12y ago
    Personally speaking, as the kind of white guy who, nine years ago or so, should have in theory been being negatively affected by programs like this, I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "dudes are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a place for women too." I respect your stance and your viewpoint, but I think you're worrying about folks who don't need much worrying done on their behalf. We dudes will be just fine without being the implicit focus of every place we go.
    - 12394344131 12y ago
      Personally speaking, as the kind of black woman who, nine years ago or so, should have in theory been being negatively affected by male culture like this, I don't find a meaningful dose of negative discrimination in "women are welcomed with hugs and handpounds pretty much everywhere, let's make sure there's a place for men too." I respect your stance and your viewpoint, but I think you're worrying about folks who don't need much worrying done on their behalf. We women will be just fine without being the implicit focus of every place we go. See how that sounds. EDIT: Please, kindly, don't speak for the entirety of your gender. Nor for the opposite gender. Don't speak in absolutes, just speak for yourself, thanks.
Double_Cast 12y ago
Do you mind if I pick your brain? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts (more than just what you disagree with) and why. E.g. Do you think institutional discrimination exists? Do you think it affects some but not others? Do you think these types of programs help minorities? Do you think they actually hurt minorities? Do you think these programs don't have any effect except to offend minorities? Do you think these programs help some and hurt others? If institutional discrimination exists, should we encourage minorities to integrate with the rest rather than segregate? Should we fight the subconscious component with awareness rather than affirmative action? Should we do nothing? (I'm not trying to be combative.)