5 ms·

Building a Better Train to Brooklyn

25 points by dshipper 12y ago

glittershark 12y ago
As someone who commutes on the L train daily, I was really disappointed to see that this was actually a metaphor. I want a literal better train to Brooklyn!
- dshipper 12y ago
  Haha! I feel your pain...rush hour on the L is terrible. Sorry if the title got your hopes up :)
- patmcguire 12y ago
  There's a source that I can't find that explains why the L in particular so bad. It's basically that most subway lines (e.g. the 2 and 3) have heavy traffic both ways at both rush hours, because they begin and end in residential areas. The L trip profile is lopsided, westbound in the morning and eastbound in the evening, so the marginal gain in capacity of adding another train to it is less than to another line and the MTA is broke enough they have to make those kinds of choices.
  - weeksie 12y ago
    I think it's that the tunnel isn't wide enough to have an express. They already run a shitload of trains on the L track, but there's an upper limit to capacity.
    - pavel_lishin 12y ago
      Would an express help with the ludicrous crowding at Union Square? A few months ago I was heading to Brooklyn, and I had to catch it from Union Square to the 8th avenue terminal - otherwise, there was no chance of getting on an eastbound train. (The westbound train was full; when we arrived at 8th, maybe five people got off. Everyone else was just trying to take the long route to Brooklyn, because it was the only option.)
      - weeksie 12y ago
        Express trains would help with volume. If an express traveling on another track was just hitting Manhattan stops plus Bedford, Morgan, Myrtle-Wyckoff, . . . That would take care of a lot of the volume that gets packed onto the always-local L.
  - glittershark 12y ago
    I wonder if that's related to the frequent full-on outages (rather than just the standard sardine-tinning); last Monday evening the L was out completely due to a cracked rail - maybe the added weight of people on the train creates more stress on the structure?
  - krschultz 12y ago
    It's also that there are fewer alternatives to the L, if the L is down, you are kind of screwed. Only the Upper East Side is so dependent on a single line, and that is changing. Plus, the L has exploded in popularity in the last 10-15 years. It was not that popular 30 years ago. Demand has grown much faster than any other line in the system.
Animats 12y ago
Here's the better train to Queens, under construction. Overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIq8EqRl_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIq8EqRl_w 2014 update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE_mvdXDP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE_mvdXDP8 Miles of new tunnels. A giant cavern under Grand Central Station. New river tunnels. Most of the blasting and digging is done; now the MTA is building the railroad in the tunnels. That's what it's like to really do that job.
oldsubwayrider 12y ago
Why I am a better programmer than you in building a better train to brooklyn 1.) the system is far worse than MACROsoft, the 'hot net' system. Because of MONOPOLY POWER the design is to cause a bit of pain for the user, that is the public. 2.) NYC compared to world subway trains is ALL MANUAL, with potential for human error. There are programmers in Germany of course (smile) that run toy railroads with Arduino and OPEN SOURCE software for ten thousand hours. 3.) Google drives cars on the road, but the public union pensions keep rising. Latest city to go bankrupt after Detroit, of course is Stockton, CA. 4.) Prove that you are a better programmer! from experience, I commute from Penn Station, 34th street to upper west side. this is the CHEAP apartments near columbia univ. Sure, there a couple of bullet holes in the concrete, but RENT IS CHEAP. So, I stand on the local station and if the train comes on express platform, I RUN down and up the stairs. Do not do this if you are heart attack prone! Strategy is to get the first train and since most folks get on at 42nd street, a good seat. 8.) to prove that I am a better engineer, but then again I have a degree. Brooklyn Bridge is old. Brooklyn Bridge has noticable vibrations (are you INTERESTED NOW??). Brooklyn Bridge was NOT designed for subway trains. the finale! BIG! Brooklyn Bridge is so old that ONLY ONE OF THE TWO FOOTINGS were finished. Read the history. i cite as reference: A.S.C.E. civil engineers report card D for USA infrastructure. PS. All trains must be on COORDINATED SCHEDULE. PS. why are some passengers with low IQ walking the complete length of the platform and getting out the wrong exits? as homework exercise, using a simple stopwatch and open source software for queuing theory, TELL THE NYC GOVERNMENT and YOUR TAX COLLECTOR - why is there so much bunching or uneven spacing of delivery of TRAIN ARRIVAL or mismatch of customer NEEDS and provider delivery?
bigger_cheese 12y ago
In materials engineering there is a similar technique to the articles "misfit analysis" used for materials selection. It is not uncommon to have competing constraints. For example to address a problem like designing a beam section optimally you want a beam thats as light as possible, meets the minimum stiffness requirements (usually with an added safety factor) and is still competitvely costed - depending on how the constraints are weighted (cost vs weight vs performance) it could mean the difference between aluminum, steel or carbon fibre for example. The real science lies in expressing the constraints and weighting them against one another correctly.
rayiner 12y ago
> How do I decide which features to include in my product and which ones to leave out? How do I know if one of the new features I’ve come up with is a good idea? Here's a key difference between software engineering, and well, engineering. Engineers, in 2015, don't come up with an idea and start pounding on sheet metal. The 787 flew in simulation thousands of times before one existed in real life. Every significant feature was measured and justified with a trade-off analysis, backed up with simulations. When they built on, they had a very good idea of what they were going to get.
- bigger_cheese 12y ago
  Typically in (non software) Engineering the problems are pretty well defined usually along the lines of: "Here is an X make it more efficient" Where X is Engine/structure/Industrial Process etc... And the defintion or at least the intent behind the meaning of "more efficent" is well understood i.e. Weighs Less, Consumes less Engergy, produces more torque etc. In the software world there is a much looser definition of what an improvement is which complicates the issue. "Engineers, in 2015, don't come up with an idea and start pounding on sheet metal" There is a good quote from Tesla I was taught as an undergraduate Engineer: “If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.” Edison went through numerous protypes trying to design the light bulb. I guess that would be the equivalent of the pounding sheet metal approach. As we were taught Edison was an inventor, Tesla an engineer. The modern day equivalent of the inventor would be the achitects and industrial designers of the world, they come up with crazy ideas (by pounding the metaphorical sheet metal) and some poor engineer has to make it work. Maybe software needs the same thing a looser coupling between software designers and software engineers.

25 points by dshipper 12y ago

As someone who commutes on the L train daily, I was really disappointed to see that this was actually a metaphor. I want a literal better train to Brooklyn!

dshipper 12y ago
Haha! I feel your pain...rush hour on the L is terrible. Sorry if the title got your hopes up :)
patmcguire 12y ago
There's a source that I can't find that explains why the L in particular so bad. It's basically that most subway lines (e.g. the 2 and 3) have heavy traffic both ways at both rush hours, because they begin and end in residential areas. The L trip profile is lopsided, westbound in the morning and eastbound in the evening, so the marginal gain in capacity of adding another train to it is less than to another line and the MTA is broke enough they have to make those kinds of choices.
- weeksie 12y ago
  I think it's that the tunnel isn't wide enough to have an express. They already run a shitload of trains on the L track, but there's an upper limit to capacity.
  - pavel_lishin 12y ago
    Would an express help with the ludicrous crowding at Union Square? A few months ago I was heading to Brooklyn, and I had to catch it from Union Square to the 8th avenue terminal - otherwise, there was no chance of getting on an eastbound train. (The westbound train was full; when we arrived at 8th, maybe five people got off. Everyone else was just trying to take the long route to Brooklyn, because it was the only option.)
    - weeksie 12y ago
      Express trains would help with volume. If an express traveling on another track was just hitting Manhattan stops plus Bedford, Morgan, Myrtle-Wyckoff, . . . That would take care of a lot of the volume that gets packed onto the always-local L.
- glittershark 12y ago
  I wonder if that's related to the frequent full-on outages (rather than just the standard sardine-tinning); last Monday evening the L was out completely due to a cracked rail - maybe the added weight of people on the train creates more stress on the structure?
- krschultz 12y ago
  It's also that there are fewer alternatives to the L, if the L is down, you are kind of screwed. Only the Upper East Side is so dependent on a single line, and that is changing. Plus, the L has exploded in popularity in the last 10-15 years. It was not that popular 30 years ago. Demand has grown much faster than any other line in the system.

Animats 12y ago

Here's the better train to Queens, under construction. Overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIq8EqRl_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdIq8EqRl_w 2014 update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE_mvdXDP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE_mvdXDP8 Miles of new tunnels. A giant cavern under Grand Central Station. New river tunnels. Most of the blasting and digging is done; now the MTA is building the railroad in the tunnels. That's what it's like to really do that job.

oldsubwayrider 12y ago

Why I am a better programmer than you in building a better train to brooklyn 1.) the system is far worse than MACROsoft, the 'hot net' system. Because of MONOPOLY POWER the design is to cause a bit of pain for the user, that is the public. 2.) NYC compared to world subway trains is ALL MANUAL, with potential for human error. There are programmers in Germany of course (smile) that run toy railroads with Arduino and OPEN SOURCE software for ten thousand hours. 3.) Google drives cars on the road, but the public union pensions keep rising. Latest city to go bankrupt after Detroit, of course is Stockton, CA. 4.) Prove that you are a better programmer! from experience, I commute from Penn Station, 34th street to upper west side. this is the CHEAP apartments near columbia univ. Sure, there a couple of bullet holes in the concrete, but RENT IS CHEAP. So, I stand on the local station and if the train comes on express platform, I RUN down and up the stairs. Do not do this if you are heart attack prone! Strategy is to get the first train and since most folks get on at 42nd street, a good seat. 8.) to prove that I am a better engineer, but then again I have a degree. Brooklyn Bridge is old. Brooklyn Bridge has noticable vibrations (are you INTERESTED NOW??). Brooklyn Bridge was NOT designed for subway trains. the finale! BIG! Brooklyn Bridge is so old that ONLY ONE OF THE TWO FOOTINGS were finished. Read the history. i cite as reference: A.S.C.E. civil engineers report card D for USA infrastructure. PS. All trains must be on COORDINATED SCHEDULE. PS. why are some passengers with low IQ walking the complete length of the platform and getting out the wrong exits? as homework exercise, using a simple stopwatch and open source software for queuing theory, TELL THE NYC GOVERNMENT and YOUR TAX COLLECTOR - why is there so much bunching or uneven spacing of delivery of TRAIN ARRIVAL or mismatch of customer NEEDS and provider delivery?

bigger_cheese 12y ago

In materials engineering there is a similar technique to the articles "misfit analysis" used for materials selection. It is not uncommon to have competing constraints. For example to address a problem like designing a beam section optimally you want a beam thats as light as possible, meets the minimum stiffness requirements (usually with an added safety factor) and is still competitvely costed - depending on how the constraints are weighted (cost vs weight vs performance) it could mean the difference between aluminum, steel or carbon fibre for example. The real science lies in expressing the constraints and weighting them against one another correctly.

rayiner 12y ago

> How do I decide which features to include in my product and which ones to leave out? How do I know if one of the new features I’ve come up with is a good idea? Here's a key difference between software engineering, and well, engineering. Engineers, in 2015, don't come up with an idea and start pounding on sheet metal. The 787 flew in simulation thousands of times before one existed in real life. Every significant feature was measured and justified with a trade-off analysis, backed up with simulations. When they built on, they had a very good idea of what they were going to get.

bigger_cheese 12y ago
Typically in (non software) Engineering the problems are pretty well defined usually along the lines of: "Here is an X make it more efficient" Where X is Engine/structure/Industrial Process etc... And the defintion or at least the intent behind the meaning of "more efficent" is well understood i.e. Weighs Less, Consumes less Engergy, produces more torque etc. In the software world there is a much looser definition of what an improvement is which complicates the issue. "Engineers, in 2015, don't come up with an idea and start pounding on sheet metal" There is a good quote from Tesla I was taught as an undergraduate Engineer: “If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.” Edison went through numerous protypes trying to design the light bulb. I guess that would be the equivalent of the pounding sheet metal approach. As we were taught Edison was an inventor, Tesla an engineer. The modern day equivalent of the inventor would be the achitects and industrial designers of the world, they come up with crazy ideas (by pounding the metaphorical sheet metal) and some poor engineer has to make it work. Maybe software needs the same thing a looser coupling between software designers and software engineers.