5 ms·

Theres more reasons to want to get support for something then your own selfish needs. Maybe you want to start hacking on the project but don't want to step on s

Theres more reasons to want to get support for something then your own selfish needs. Maybe you want to start hacking on the project but don't want to step on someone else's toes? Then join the mailing list and participate in the discussion. Why shouldn't the process be frictionless? There's very little software that supports both fly-by questions on the web, and proper discussion via e-mail, so we optimize for ourselves, not users. Web forums aren't frictionless. In fact, they're totally shit for the purpose of carrying on detailed conversations over the course of days without requiring constant attention from all the participants. There's a reason why most forums will e-mail you when your watched threads are updated. Why not just have the e-mail be the thread? Why do you want to make it difficult for people to start using or get help using your software? Users don't pay the bills, and questions are usually incredibly repetitive and dull, no matter how easy-to-use or well documented the project is. I'd rather the users that are unwilling to invest in the mailing list self-segregate by posting their one-offs to sites like StackOverflow.

Zev 17y ago
It may just be me, but it seems like you're contradicting yourself with: There's very little software that supports both fly-by questions on the web, and proper discussion via e-mail, so we optimize for ourselves, not users. and Users don't pay the bills, and questions are usually incredibly repetitive and dull, no matter how easy-to-use or well documented the project is. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with coding for yourself, it doesn't usually pay the bills either. And (sadly), its rarer then it should be for someone to be able to print money for themselves by making things for themselves. I reiterate: If different users are asking the same question repeatedly, perhaps its an indicator that there's something wrong with your software, not your users? Oh, and, incase you don't know, not all software needs to expand until they can read mail. Multitasking has (sans the iPhone, if you want), been around for decades. People are more than capable of having one program open at a time. There's nothing wrong with this. Web forums aren't frictionless. In fact, they're totally shit for the purpose of carrying on detailed conversations over the course of days without requiring constant attention from all the participants. There's a reason why most forums will e-mail you when your watched threads are updated. Why not just have the e-mail be the thread? Nowhere did I say that forums are better than email. They're both equally bad. My personal preference for this sort of thing is IRC. Of course, I'm biased, since one of the projects I spend the most time working on is an IRC client. Also, forums are easier for end users to figure out then mailing lists. You could argue thats because mailing list software tends to suck, but, thats ignoring the issue. I'd rather the users that are unwilling to invest in the mailing list self-segregate by posting their one-offs to sites like StackOverflow. Not all open source projects are programming languages or libraries, which is SO's target area currently seems to be.
- antonovka 17y ago
  While there's absolutely nothing wrong with coding for yourself, it doesn't usually pay the bills either. And (sadly), its rarer then it should be for someone to be able to print money for themselves by making things for themselves. Feel free to treat "pay the bills" metaphorically. That was my intention. I reiterate: If different users are asking the same question repeatedly, perhaps its an indicator that there's something wrong with your software, not your users? Perhaps. But more often than not it's an inherent complexity in the problem space itself. Oh, and, incase you don't know, not all software needs to expand until they can read mail. Multitasking has (sans the iPhone, if you want), been around for decades. People are more than capable of having one program open at a time. There's nothing wrong with this. I don't follow your meaning ... My personal preference for this sort of thing is IRC. IRC is real-time and ephemeral, which makes it considerably more difficult to engage in conversations with contributors in other time zones, and refer back to design discussions that occurred 5-20 years ago. Also, forums are easier for end users to figure out then mailing lists. I thought we already established that project communication channels are primarily optimized for the project contributors who use them daily, not for once-off questions from end users.
  - Zev 17y ago
    Perhaps. But more often than not it's an inherent complexity in the problem space itself. That isn't to say there is only ever one way of performing an action or that it is impossible to make it clearer how to perform a task. And if you make it difficult for users to give you their opinion, it will be that much harder to know what needs to be improved. IRC is real-time and ephemeral, which makes it considerably more difficult to engage in conversations with contributors in other time zones, and refer back to design discussions that occurred 5-20 years ago. There's not very many projects that date back 20 years ago that also have the complexity that you're talking about. X11 and the Linux kernel are the only two I can think of off the top of my head. And I would hope that a 5-20 year old project that's continuously under development would have more documentation than posts from a mailing list about its design. I thought we already established that project communication channels are primarily optimized for the project contributors who use them daily, not for once-off questions from end users. I would be interested in seeing how many projects — open source in this case — have > 1 or 2 contributors. I may be off base, but I'd guess that you're optimizing towards large, highly visible projects and not the small, norm of an open source project.

Zev 17y ago

It may just be me, but it seems like you're contradicting yourself with: There's very little software that supports both fly-by questions on the web, and proper discussion via e-mail, so we optimize for ourselves, not users. and Users don't pay the bills, and questions are usually incredibly repetitive and dull, no matter how easy-to-use or well documented the project is. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with coding for yourself, it doesn't usually pay the bills either. And (sadly), its rarer then it should be for someone to be able to print money for themselves by making things for themselves. I reiterate: If different users are asking the same question repeatedly, perhaps its an indicator that there's something wrong with your software, not your users? Oh, and, incase you don't know, not all software needs to expand until they can read mail. Multitasking has (sans the iPhone, if you want), been around for decades. People are more than capable of having one program open at a time. There's nothing wrong with this. Web forums aren't frictionless. In fact, they're totally shit for the purpose of carrying on detailed conversations over the course of days without requiring constant attention from all the participants. There's a reason why most forums will e-mail you when your watched threads are updated. Why not just have the e-mail be the thread? Nowhere did I say that forums are better than email. They're both equally bad. My personal preference for this sort of thing is IRC. Of course, I'm biased, since one of the projects I spend the most time working on is an IRC client. Also, forums are easier for end users to figure out then mailing lists. You could argue thats because mailing list software tends to suck, but, thats ignoring the issue. I'd rather the users that are unwilling to invest in the mailing list self-segregate by posting their one-offs to sites like StackOverflow. Not all open source projects are programming languages or libraries, which is SO's target area currently seems to be.

antonovka 17y ago
While there's absolutely nothing wrong with coding for yourself, it doesn't usually pay the bills either. And (sadly), its rarer then it should be for someone to be able to print money for themselves by making things for themselves. Feel free to treat "pay the bills" metaphorically. That was my intention. I reiterate: If different users are asking the same question repeatedly, perhaps its an indicator that there's something wrong with your software, not your users? Perhaps. But more often than not it's an inherent complexity in the problem space itself. Oh, and, incase you don't know, not all software needs to expand until they can read mail. Multitasking has (sans the iPhone, if you want), been around for decades. People are more than capable of having one program open at a time. There's nothing wrong with this. I don't follow your meaning ... My personal preference for this sort of thing is IRC. IRC is real-time and ephemeral, which makes it considerably more difficult to engage in conversations with contributors in other time zones, and refer back to design discussions that occurred 5-20 years ago. Also, forums are easier for end users to figure out then mailing lists. I thought we already established that project communication channels are primarily optimized for the project contributors who use them daily, not for once-off questions from end users.
- Zev 17y ago
  Perhaps. But more often than not it's an inherent complexity in the problem space itself. That isn't to say there is only ever one way of performing an action or that it is impossible to make it clearer how to perform a task. And if you make it difficult for users to give you their opinion, it will be that much harder to know what needs to be improved. IRC is real-time and ephemeral, which makes it considerably more difficult to engage in conversations with contributors in other time zones, and refer back to design discussions that occurred 5-20 years ago. There's not very many projects that date back 20 years ago that also have the complexity that you're talking about. X11 and the Linux kernel are the only two I can think of off the top of my head. And I would hope that a 5-20 year old project that's continuously under development would have more documentation than posts from a mailing list about its design. I thought we already established that project communication channels are primarily optimized for the project contributors who use them daily, not for once-off questions from end users. I would be interested in seeing how many projects — open source in this case — have > 1 or 2 contributors. I may be off base, but I'd guess that you're optimizing towards large, highly visible projects and not the small, norm of an open source project.