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Indeed, Excel is close to perfect for the purpose of building data abstractions in an intuitive way. The only part I find lacking is for building behavior abstr

Indeed, Excel is close to perfect for the purpose of building data abstractions in an intuitive way. The only part I find lacking is for building behavior abstractions which allowed users to build semi-automated workflows by changing views of data on the fly; to change presentation, Excel still requires you change languages and resort to imperative programming in Visual Basic, much like Hypercard. A tool that combined Excel's functional data-flow programming with Hypercard's representation of state (as a stack of panels that change depending on the execution of small attached functions) would IMHO provide a general programming tool for end users.

david927 12y ago
If you have time, could you take a look at this project I'm working on? https://vimeo.com/107069470 https://vimeo.com/107069470 I would relish feedback.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  I'll have to take a closer look at your video, but from a first glance I'd say you're firmly in the right direction. Spreadsheets "declarative-reactive" execution model is a solid base for end-user development environments, and some features (like "attribute chaining", if it is what I think it is, and allowing users to build data structures as attribute collections on tables) match what I have in mind for my ideal "live modeling" programming environment. Do you have a place where you document your design ideas (in addition to this video) and share the code of Kaya? On which language is it coded? I'd love to study how you've built the running environment.
  - david927 12y ago
    Contact me: david 927 at gmail
collyw 12y ago
Excel is easy to model in an intuitive way, but it end up being very poor models that come out of it, as it is basically a two dimensional grid. So the first two dimensions you are modelling will come out well, but once you need to start adding extra information in, then you have color coding, new fonts, and all sort of hacks to overcome the limitations of excel, when in reality you ought to be using a proper database by that stage.
- TuringTest 12y ago
  That's right, and this is why a better tool is needed. In the end Excel can't support arbitrary levels of abstraction. IMO this is not because the base model is a grid (after all, "proper databases" also follow that table model) but because you can't create new tables on the fly and treat them as new objects independent of their structure. Once you build a data type as fields laid out as columns, all the operations on that data (mainly filters and search) need to be operated by hand. You can't properly express in Excel something like "there are three collections of employees, and I can create a '' function that works on any of the three". If you have separate tables with the same structure, you need to replicate the same operations on each independent table; the only way to build reusable code is with Visual Basic macros, which falls outside the spreadsheet declarative model. But if you could create new functions with Excel formulas (like style handling or business processes) and apply them to any arbitrary table having the adequate structure, I think you could have robust abstractions within the spreadsheet context itself - from a theoretical level, the storage model of spreadsheets is no different from that of relational databases.
  - cm2187 12y ago
    I cannot agree more. Apple's stab at Excel with Calcs is the way Excel should always have been. A blank sheet to which you can add tables or charts, not a single grid. You only need to add an index by which you can query these tables (instead of VLOOKUPs), and you have something as simple and flexible as a spreadsheet and as powerful as a database. Microsoft seem to be keen to observe and take inspiration in what is done outside, but somehow the office team seems to be an exception. Apart from re-shuffling around the buttons, I can hardly tell the difference between Excel 2000 and Excel 2013.
    - TuringTest 12y ago
      To be fair, Excel internals must be too brittle to allow for more extreme redesigns; they've been piling up layer upon layer of technological changes for three decades, and they need to keep it working without crashing too much. I don't know Apple's Calcs, but Microsoft has built the PowerPivot extension that largely works as a modern, parallel version of Excel embedded within the same window. If you need to work on Excel with large datasets and/or complex relations, it may pay off to learn this extension.

david927 12y ago

If you have time, could you take a look at this project I'm working on? https://vimeo.com/107069470 https://vimeo.com/107069470 I would relish feedback.

TuringTest 12y ago
I'll have to take a closer look at your video, but from a first glance I'd say you're firmly in the right direction. Spreadsheets "declarative-reactive" execution model is a solid base for end-user development environments, and some features (like "attribute chaining", if it is what I think it is, and allowing users to build data structures as attribute collections on tables) match what I have in mind for my ideal "live modeling" programming environment. Do you have a place where you document your design ideas (in addition to this video) and share the code of Kaya? On which language is it coded? I'd love to study how you've built the running environment.
- david927 12y ago
  Contact me: david 927 at gmail

collyw 12y ago

Excel is easy to model in an intuitive way, but it end up being very poor models that come out of it, as it is basically a two dimensional grid. So the first two dimensions you are modelling will come out well, but once you need to start adding extra information in, then you have color coding, new fonts, and all sort of hacks to overcome the limitations of excel, when in reality you ought to be using a proper database by that stage.

TuringTest 12y ago
That's right, and this is why a better tool is needed. In the end Excel can't support arbitrary levels of abstraction. IMO this is not because the base model is a grid (after all, "proper databases" also follow that table model) but because you can't create new tables on the fly and treat them as new objects independent of their structure. Once you build a data type as fields laid out as columns, all the operations on that data (mainly filters and search) need to be operated by hand. You can't properly express in Excel something like "there are three collections of employees, and I can create a '' function that works on any of the three". If you have separate tables with the same structure, you need to replicate the same operations on each independent table; the only way to build reusable code is with Visual Basic macros, which falls outside the spreadsheet declarative model. But if you could create new functions with Excel formulas (like style handling or business processes) and apply them to any arbitrary table having the adequate structure, I think you could have robust abstractions within the spreadsheet context itself - from a theoretical level, the storage model of spreadsheets is no different from that of relational databases.
- cm2187 12y ago
  I cannot agree more. Apple's stab at Excel with Calcs is the way Excel should always have been. A blank sheet to which you can add tables or charts, not a single grid. You only need to add an index by which you can query these tables (instead of VLOOKUPs), and you have something as simple and flexible as a spreadsheet and as powerful as a database. Microsoft seem to be keen to observe and take inspiration in what is done outside, but somehow the office team seems to be an exception. Apart from re-shuffling around the buttons, I can hardly tell the difference between Excel 2000 and Excel 2013.
  - TuringTest 12y ago
    To be fair, Excel internals must be too brittle to allow for more extreme redesigns; they've been piling up layer upon layer of technological changes for three decades, and they need to keep it working without crashing too much. I don't know Apple's Calcs, but Microsoft has built the PowerPivot extension that largely works as a modern, parallel version of Excel embedded within the same window. If you need to work on Excel with large datasets and/or complex relations, it may pay off to learn this extension.