6 ms·

Private police carry guns and make arrests, and their ranks are swelling

45 points by eplanit 12y ago

nlh 12y ago
The biggest question that comes to my mind when reading this: What powers do these SCOPs _actually_ have? If an SCOP tried to arrest someone and they simply said "no" or otherwise resisted, can that person be charged with resisting arrest? Do the tickets they write carry the penalty of law? If you don't pay them, can a bench warrant be issued, etc.? There's obviously value in supplementary security in certain places -- otherwise mall cops and other private patrols wouldn't exist. But a mall cop can't arrest you, and a private security patrol can write you a ticket but it's meaningless if you decide not to pay it. Curious if anyone knows more about this... EDIT: Did some digging. Looks like the state gives them the power of real cops. Amazing. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-13 https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-13 "a special conservator of the peace shall have all the powers, functions, duties, responsibilities and authority of any other conservator of the peace"
- gohrt 12y ago
  See also old law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_Unite...
- EliRivers 12y ago
  EDIT: Did some digging. Looks like the state gives them the power of real cops. Amazing. Surely at that point they are real cops?
  - pc86 12y ago
    I guess that depends on if you define a police officer by the power they wield or by the training they receive.
bitJericho 12y ago
My favorite comment in there: "The two enemies of the people are criminals and GOVERNMENT, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson Is actually an altered quote from Ayn Rand. Amazing how brainwashed conservative Americans are.
- EpicEng 12y ago
  What amazes me is that some non-conservatives think that conservatives are the only ones out to limit our freedoms. Amazing how brainwashed non-conservative Americans are.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    Did you just dust off the ol' "I know you are, but what am I?" bit in defense of conservatism?
    - EpicEng 12y ago
      No, I brushed off the ol' "Don't paint an entire group of people with one brush unless you actually know what you're talking about, and even then, you're probably wrong" bit. I can't stand people on either side who believe that their side is the side of RIGHT and everyone else are just greedy scumbags (or brainwashed idiots). I am not a conservative, but I know enough to know that there are devils on both sides of the aisle.
      - Frondo 12y ago
        You can't stand people who believe their political views/beliefs are the RIGHT ones? How should people feel about their political beliefs--what would be an appropriate attitude to take, if not to think theirs are RIGHT?
        bmelton 12y ago
        Believing your beliefs are the only correct way to believe is fine, but gets rather interesting when accusing the "other party" as brainwashed.
beefman 12y ago
San Francisco has had a private police force since 1847 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Patrol_Special_Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Patrol_Special_P...
- talmand 12y ago
  This is a major part of the plot in the movie Kuffs. It was the first time I realized that such a thing still existed in modern times.
tsotha 12y ago
In most US states anybody can make an arrest if they reasonably believe a felony has taken place, and can even make an arrest for misdemeanors that involve "breaches of the peace". As for carrying guns, WaPo might be interested to know there are lots of places in the US where you can carry a gun without being a cop.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > In most US states anybody can make an arrest if they reasonably believe a felony has taken place IIRC, that's incorrect; in most US states, the rule is that non-felonies (if lawfully subject to such arrests at all) subject to citizens arrest only if they occur in the presence of the arresting person (not if the arresting person merely reasonably believes that they have occurred), and even for felonies the arresting person must reasonably believe that the arrested party committed the felony, but the felony must also have actually occurred, otherwise the arresting person is liable for false arrest even with reasonable belief that the arrested party had committed a felony.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    >...and even for felonies the arresting person must reasonably believe that the arrested party committed the felony, but the felony must also have actually occurred, otherwise the arresting person is liable for false arrest even with reasonable belief that the arrested party had committed a felony. I don't believe this is true, though I suspect we're getting off into the details that vary from state to state. Certainly you're asking for trouble making a citizen's arrest unless you're pretty damn sure you know exactly what's going on.
zach 12y ago
From the article: "A handful of incidents involving SCOPs in Virginia and nationally have focused attention on the training and oversight of private police." Well, many incidents nationally have focused attention on the training and oversight of municipal police too, to put it mildly.
seekingtruth 12y ago
Oh dear, private citizens carrying arms and protecting private property and life. Tut-tut!
- mentat 12y ago
  Depends on if that private property is their personal private property or something they've self-deputized themselves to "protect".
- chris_wot 12y ago
  Private citizens carrying arms to protect the rights and property of other private citizens through the mechanisms granted to them by the state. I would have thought Libertarians felt a little conflicted.
gayprogrammer 12y ago
A lot of people are going to compare any kind of private police to "real" police, but that' just the first step in coming to realize what a police force actually is. It's not as ubiquitous and black/white as most people assume.
desdiv 12y ago
Interesting fact: the third largest non-government-owned employer in the world is a security company called G4S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers
- chris_wot 12y ago
  And they are absolutely freaking dreadful.
known 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_owners...
- unwind 12y ago
  One thing that I feel must be mentioned to put that list into perspective: "guns" can mean a range of different things. For Sweden (9:th in the list, with around 1/3rd the number of guns per capita as the US, and also where I live), I'm pretty sure a very high percentage of those guns are rifles, used for hunting. Handguns, which seem very common in the US, are very rare among people who would have their weapons registered. I guess almost all such owners are sport shooters; owning a handgun for personal self defense just doesn't exist as a use-case.
jmccree 12y ago
North Carolina has company police[1] that are required to go through the same state police academy training as all other officers. This seems to be one of the fairest models amongst the states for private police. I first found out about this at the famous Biltmore Estate where they have their own company police dept. It made sense when explained that the estate is 8000+ acres and it could take 30+ mins for the nearest deputy to respond and find where they were needed. The company police are already on site and know the estate in and out. In almost all states there are private police statues for rail roads, universities, FedEx[2], etc. Of course every government agency or authority wants it's own police force leading to things like FBI Police[3] or Georgia World Congress Center Authority Police[4]. It seems clear to me that any time you have a large private space, be it a mall, theme park, college campus, etc., there will be need for private police. What happens when there is no company police statute is that businesses hire off-duty local police, leading to things like the NYPD Paid Detail Unit[5]. It's far more worrying to me to have public police working off duty for private interests, than having private police who's jurisdiction are limited to their private property. [1] http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/cda6467e-77ce-4f5e-bb46-502e15c78ada/2-6-3-1-1-3-Campus---Company-Police-Officer-Certif.aspx http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/cda6467e-77ce-4f5e-bb46-502e15c7... [2] http://www.semissourian.com/story/132255.html http://www.semissourian.com/story/132255.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Police [4] http://www.gwcc.com/about/Safety.aspx http://www.gwcc.com/about/Safety.aspx [5] https://www.nycpba.org/archive/nydn/03/nydn-030810-ot.html https://www.nycpba.org/archive/nydn/03/nydn-030810-ot.html

45 points by eplanit 12y ago

nlh 12y ago

The biggest question that comes to my mind when reading this: What powers do these SCOPs _actually_ have? If an SCOP tried to arrest someone and they simply said "no" or otherwise resisted, can that person be charged with resisting arrest? Do the tickets they write carry the penalty of law? If you don't pay them, can a bench warrant be issued, etc.? There's obviously value in supplementary security in certain places -- otherwise mall cops and other private patrols wouldn't exist. But a mall cop can't arrest you, and a private security patrol can write you a ticket but it's meaningless if you decide not to pay it. Curious if anyone knows more about this... EDIT: Did some digging. Looks like the state gives them the power of real cops. Amazing. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-13 https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-13 "a special conservator of the peace shall have all the powers, functions, duties, responsibilities and authority of any other conservator of the peace"

gohrt 12y ago
See also old law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_Unite...
EliRivers 12y ago
EDIT: Did some digging. Looks like the state gives them the power of real cops. Amazing. Surely at that point they are real cops?
- pc86 12y ago
  I guess that depends on if you define a police officer by the power they wield or by the training they receive.

bitJericho 12y ago

My favorite comment in there: "The two enemies of the people are criminals and GOVERNMENT, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson Is actually an altered quote from Ayn Rand. Amazing how brainwashed conservative Americans are.

EpicEng 12y ago
What amazes me is that some non-conservatives think that conservatives are the only ones out to limit our freedoms. Amazing how brainwashed non-conservative Americans are.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Did you just dust off the ol' "I know you are, but what am I?" bit in defense of conservatism?
  - EpicEng 12y ago
    No, I brushed off the ol' "Don't paint an entire group of people with one brush unless you actually know what you're talking about, and even then, you're probably wrong" bit. I can't stand people on either side who believe that their side is the side of RIGHT and everyone else are just greedy scumbags (or brainwashed idiots). I am not a conservative, but I know enough to know that there are devils on both sides of the aisle.
    - Frondo 12y ago
      You can't stand people who believe their political views/beliefs are the RIGHT ones? How should people feel about their political beliefs--what would be an appropriate attitude to take, if not to think theirs are RIGHT?
      - bmelton 12y ago
        Believing your beliefs are the only correct way to believe is fine, but gets rather interesting when accusing the "other party" as brainwashed.

beefman 12y ago

San Francisco has had a private police force since 1847 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Patrol_Special_Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Patrol_Special_P...

talmand 12y ago
This is a major part of the plot in the movie Kuffs. It was the first time I realized that such a thing still existed in modern times.

tsotha 12y ago

In most US states anybody can make an arrest if they reasonably believe a felony has taken place, and can even make an arrest for misdemeanors that involve "breaches of the peace". As for carrying guns, WaPo might be interested to know there are lots of places in the US where you can carry a gun without being a cop.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> In most US states anybody can make an arrest if they reasonably believe a felony has taken place IIRC, that's incorrect; in most US states, the rule is that non-felonies (if lawfully subject to such arrests at all) subject to citizens arrest only if they occur in the presence of the arresting person (not if the arresting person merely reasonably believes that they have occurred), and even for felonies the arresting person must reasonably believe that the arrested party committed the felony, but the felony must also have actually occurred, otherwise the arresting person is liable for false arrest even with reasonable belief that the arrested party had committed a felony.
- tsotha 12y ago
  >...and even for felonies the arresting person must reasonably believe that the arrested party committed the felony, but the felony must also have actually occurred, otherwise the arresting person is liable for false arrest even with reasonable belief that the arrested party had committed a felony. I don't believe this is true, though I suspect we're getting off into the details that vary from state to state. Certainly you're asking for trouble making a citizen's arrest unless you're pretty damn sure you know exactly what's going on.

zach 12y ago

From the article: "A handful of incidents involving SCOPs in Virginia and nationally have focused attention on the training and oversight of private police." Well, many incidents nationally have focused attention on the training and oversight of municipal police too, to put it mildly.

seekingtruth 12y ago

Oh dear, private citizens carrying arms and protecting private property and life. Tut-tut!

mentat 12y ago
Depends on if that private property is their personal private property or something they've self-deputized themselves to "protect".
chris_wot 12y ago
Private citizens carrying arms to protect the rights and property of other private citizens through the mechanisms granted to them by the state. I would have thought Libertarians felt a little conflicted.

gayprogrammer 12y ago

A lot of people are going to compare any kind of private police to "real" police, but that' just the first step in coming to realize what a police force actually is. It's not as ubiquitous and black/white as most people assume.

desdiv 12y ago

Interesting fact: the third largest non-government-owned employer in the world is a security company called G4S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers

chris_wot 12y ago
And they are absolutely freaking dreadful.

known 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_owners...

unwind 12y ago
One thing that I feel must be mentioned to put that list into perspective: "guns" can mean a range of different things. For Sweden (9:th in the list, with around 1/3rd the number of guns per capita as the US, and also where I live), I'm pretty sure a very high percentage of those guns are rifles, used for hunting. Handguns, which seem very common in the US, are very rare among people who would have their weapons registered. I guess almost all such owners are sport shooters; owning a handgun for personal self defense just doesn't exist as a use-case.

jmccree 12y ago

North Carolina has company police[1] that are required to go through the same state police academy training as all other officers. This seems to be one of the fairest models amongst the states for private police. I first found out about this at the famous Biltmore Estate where they have their own company police dept. It made sense when explained that the estate is 8000+ acres and it could take 30+ mins for the nearest deputy to respond and find where they were needed. The company police are already on site and know the estate in and out. In almost all states there are private police statues for rail roads, universities, FedEx[2], etc. Of course every government agency or authority wants it's own police force leading to things like FBI Police[3] or Georgia World Congress Center Authority Police[4]. It seems clear to me that any time you have a large private space, be it a mall, theme park, college campus, etc., there will be need for private police. What happens when there is no company police statute is that businesses hire off-duty local police, leading to things like the NYPD Paid Detail Unit[5]. It's far more worrying to me to have public police working off duty for private interests, than having private police who's jurisdiction are limited to their private property. [1] http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/cda6467e-77ce-4f5e-bb46-502e15c78ada/2-6-3-1-1-3-Campus---Company-Police-Officer-Certif.aspx http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/cda6467e-77ce-4f5e-bb46-502e15c7... [2] http://www.semissourian.com/story/132255.html http://www.semissourian.com/story/132255.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Police [4] http://www.gwcc.com/about/Safety.aspx http://www.gwcc.com/about/Safety.aspx [5] https://www.nycpba.org/archive/nydn/03/nydn-030810-ot.html https://www.nycpba.org/archive/nydn/03/nydn-030810-ot.html