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I think people who complain about discrimination against Asian students in places such as Harvard should ask themselves, why do people want to go to Harvard? It

by Edmond 12y ago

I think people who complain about discrimination against Asian students in places such as Harvard should ask themselves, why do people want to go to Harvard? It sure as hell isn't because that is the only place you can get an excellent education. While Harvard is obviously great as an academic institution, people want to go to Harvard for the prestige. Do you think that prestige would be there if they were to allow the place to essentially become an academic ghetto for any given ethic group (Asian, Jewish or any future group)? Every time a Harvard affiliated person wins the Nobel prize, Pulitzer, Macarthur or becomes the first black president the prestige equity of every Harvard graduate goes up. You don't get that by robotically picking students based on only test scores. Complaining about not being accepted to a place like Harvard even though you scored a perfect SAT or some other test taking metric shows a misunderstanding of what these highly prestigious institutions are about.

jessriedel 12y ago
We know what top universities would look like if they selected purely for academics. They would look like CalTech. > Every time a Harvard affiliated person wins the Nobel prize, Pulitzer, Macarthur .... You don't get that by robotically picking students based on only test scores. CalTech has more nobel prizes per capita than any of the Ivies. Dunno if CalTech loses out on Macarthur (maybe) or Pulizer (probably), but if so it's because CalTech is a technical university. There's no reason you couldn't have an all-academically selected university focusing on the humanities. > or becomes the first black president the prestige equity of every Harvard graduate goes up. This is obviously not the reason that Harvard has racial preferences. Yes, we can agree that it is reasonable for Harvard and other high-prestige universities to select for things besides academics (ambition, social savvy, sports, extracurriculars). But the complaint being leveled is that they shouldn't pick explicitly on race.
- Edmond 12y ago
  I think you're making my point, only people hanging out on HN and other similar circles know what CalTech is...Go out there and ask random people about CalTech... :) CalTech is a first-rate academic institution but it's prestige is limited to those who actually know what it is about. My reference to the "first black president" has less to do with race or racial preference but rather for the sort of social change it represents. When you take the entire social history of the United States, a first black president is a monumental change and the institutions (academic or otherwise) that can claim any part of the credit for that, are falling over themselves to do so. Again, my point is that the preoccupation people have with Schools like Harvard isn't about academics but prestige.
  - jessriedel 12y ago
    > CalTech is a first-rate academic institution but it's prestige is limited to those who actually know what it is about... > Again, my point is that the preoccupation people have with Schools like Harvard isn't about academics but prestige. I understand that, which is why I didn't claim that CalTech had the same prestige as Harvard. I was rebutting your claim that Harvard had racial policies in order to get academic awards in order to get prestige. > My reference to the "first black president" has less to do with race or racial preference but rather for the sort of social change it represents. When you take the entire social history of the United States, a first black president is a monumental change and the institutions (academic or otherwise) that can claim any part of the credit for that, are falling over themselves to do so. Again, this is clearly not why Harvard has these policies, so bringing it up is a distraction. I agree that racial policies affect Harvard's prestige, and I agree that Harvard is driven largely by the pursuit of prestige, but I disagree that prominent racial alumni is a causal link, as you suggested.
- Anechoic 12y ago
  We know what top universities would look like if they selected purely for academics. They would look like CalTech. Again, this isn't true. Caltech considers race, legacies (this is recent), work experience and volunteer experience (although they hold less weight than academics). See section C7 of CalTech's CDS filings: http://finance.caltech.edu/Resources/cds http://finance.caltech.edu/Resources/cds
  - jessriedel 12y ago
    You're splitting hairs. First, as you say, this is recent, so it doesn't affect my points. Second, CalTech clearly makes race a much smaller factor than the Ivies, and in fact many folks who support giving racial preferences consider CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service. CalTech's class is just 1% black.
    - Anechoic 12y ago
      Only the legacy consideration is recent, everything else (including racial consideration) has been happening for at least 20 years. But I was responding to the quote that Caltech selects "purely" for academics. They don't, they look at a number of factors. CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service As I noted in another response to this thread, as a black high-schooler I was highly recruited by CalTech despite showing no interest in attending. They also have an outreach program. It's more than lip service. They put in less emphasize than other institutions, but it's not zero.
      - jessriedel 12y ago
        > Only the legacy consideration is recent, everything else (including racial consideration) has been happening for at least 20 years. But I was responding to the quote that Caltech selects "purely" for academics. They don't, they look at a number of factors. Fair enough. Thanks for the correction. However, I still don't think their official statements are very meaningful unless backed up by actual results. >> CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service > They also have an outreach program. Oh sure, but these aren't admissions policies. Sorry, I'm not trying to start a fight on semantics, but I do think (especially in the context of this article) that having outreach programs is importantly different than changing the admissions procedure.
asdfologist 12y ago
Nonsense - this is a classic example of a strawman. Your post directly implies that the only two ways to do college admissions is 1) take race into account (as it does today), or 2) look at only test scores. Holistic admissions can be race-blind, you know?

by Edmond 12y ago

jessriedel 12y ago

We know what top universities would look like if they selected purely for academics. They would look like CalTech. > Every time a Harvard affiliated person wins the Nobel prize, Pulitzer, Macarthur .... You don't get that by robotically picking students based on only test scores. CalTech has more nobel prizes per capita than any of the Ivies. Dunno if CalTech loses out on Macarthur (maybe) or Pulizer (probably), but if so it's because CalTech is a technical university. There's no reason you couldn't have an all-academically selected university focusing on the humanities. > or becomes the first black president the prestige equity of every Harvard graduate goes up. This is obviously not the reason that Harvard has racial preferences. Yes, we can agree that it is reasonable for Harvard and other high-prestige universities to select for things besides academics (ambition, social savvy, sports, extracurriculars). But the complaint being leveled is that they shouldn't pick explicitly on race.

Edmond 12y ago
I think you're making my point, only people hanging out on HN and other similar circles know what CalTech is...Go out there and ask random people about CalTech... :) CalTech is a first-rate academic institution but it's prestige is limited to those who actually know what it is about. My reference to the "first black president" has less to do with race or racial preference but rather for the sort of social change it represents. When you take the entire social history of the United States, a first black president is a monumental change and the institutions (academic or otherwise) that can claim any part of the credit for that, are falling over themselves to do so. Again, my point is that the preoccupation people have with Schools like Harvard isn't about academics but prestige.
- jessriedel 12y ago
  > CalTech is a first-rate academic institution but it's prestige is limited to those who actually know what it is about... > Again, my point is that the preoccupation people have with Schools like Harvard isn't about academics but prestige. I understand that, which is why I didn't claim that CalTech had the same prestige as Harvard. I was rebutting your claim that Harvard had racial policies in order to get academic awards in order to get prestige. > My reference to the "first black president" has less to do with race or racial preference but rather for the sort of social change it represents. When you take the entire social history of the United States, a first black president is a monumental change and the institutions (academic or otherwise) that can claim any part of the credit for that, are falling over themselves to do so. Again, this is clearly not why Harvard has these policies, so bringing it up is a distraction. I agree that racial policies affect Harvard's prestige, and I agree that Harvard is driven largely by the pursuit of prestige, but I disagree that prominent racial alumni is a causal link, as you suggested.
Anechoic 12y ago
We know what top universities would look like if they selected purely for academics. They would look like CalTech. Again, this isn't true. Caltech considers race, legacies (this is recent), work experience and volunteer experience (although they hold less weight than academics). See section C7 of CalTech's CDS filings: http://finance.caltech.edu/Resources/cds http://finance.caltech.edu/Resources/cds
- jessriedel 12y ago
  You're splitting hairs. First, as you say, this is recent, so it doesn't affect my points. Second, CalTech clearly makes race a much smaller factor than the Ivies, and in fact many folks who support giving racial preferences consider CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service. CalTech's class is just 1% black.
  - Anechoic 12y ago
    Only the legacy consideration is recent, everything else (including racial consideration) has been happening for at least 20 years. But I was responding to the quote that Caltech selects "purely" for academics. They don't, they look at a number of factors. CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service As I noted in another response to this thread, as a black high-schooler I was highly recruited by CalTech despite showing no interest in attending. They also have an outreach program. It's more than lip service. They put in less emphasize than other institutions, but it's not zero.
    - jessriedel 12y ago
      > Only the legacy consideration is recent, everything else (including racial consideration) has been happening for at least 20 years. But I was responding to the quote that Caltech selects "purely" for academics. They don't, they look at a number of factors. Fair enough. Thanks for the correction. However, I still don't think their official statements are very meaningful unless backed up by actual results. >> CalTech's stated admission policies to be mere lip service > They also have an outreach program. Oh sure, but these aren't admissions policies. Sorry, I'm not trying to start a fight on semantics, but I do think (especially in the context of this article) that having outreach programs is importantly different than changing the admissions procedure.

asdfologist 12y ago

Nonsense - this is a classic example of a strawman. Your post directly implies that the only two ways to do college admissions is 1) take race into account (as it does today), or 2) look at only test scores. Holistic admissions can be race-blind, you know?