5 ms·

I'm really interested in your use of the words 'modern' and 'old' in the above post. The human perceptual system does not change much from millennium to millen

I'm really interested in your use of the words 'modern' and 'old' in the above post. The human perceptual system does not change much from millennium to millennium and that our understanding of how that system works becomes richer over decades. Can you explain how one set of afordances can be considered more modern than another? I'm not being snarky, I'd really like to understand your idea of modern/old in this context.

heinrich5991 12y ago
He probably means the word just in the sense that e.g. Wiktionary defines: Pertaining to a current or recent time and style; not ancient.[1] [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modern#Adjective https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modern#Adjective EDIT: And by old, he probably means "old-style".
- keithpeter 12y ago
  So XFCE 4.12 is a modern UI according to your definition, having just been released.
  - wodenokoto 12y ago
    Now you are being snarky.
    - keithpeter 12y ago
      Well perhaps I'll confess to a little licence with this last reply. I really find use of the M word strange in relation to UIs. The whole idea of a GUI is, what, 40 years old?
wodenokoto 12y ago
I mean old in the time-line of GUI, not human history. The modern design trend is minimal widgets and minimal chrome, where as older design trend are heavier on buttons and chrome.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  Is this essentially a fashion choice then? Is there an underlying reason for minimal widgets and chrome?
  - byuu 12y ago
    Yes. It's a pervasive attitude as of late that "users are stupid; so kill all the options for choice" and "older = worse; newer = better" Think of it like learning Dvorak. Sure, in theory, by some arbitrary histrionics, these new UIs are 3% more "effective". There's no real objective proof of it, but people just feel like it is. And hell, maybe it really is! So to gain that 3% advantage, they want you to throw out 20 years of muscle memory and familiarity. They want you to throw away all that you're used to and retrain yourself again and again. And sure, maybe after enough time, you might actually like it a little bit more. But all of the time you've wasted relearning everything will never make up for the tiny, marginal increase in efficiency you gained. Nor for all you had to give up to get there. But this attitude of eternal improvement never ends. You jump on Dvorak because it's such an improvement, and you spend months, maybe years, getting up to your native speed again ... and along comes Colemak, but now it has competition with Workman. Which do you choose? Colemak or Workman? Gnome 3 or Unity? Gotta throw away that Qwerty and Dvorak mechanical keyboard; gotta throw away all those old GTK2 UIs; and start over. The infinitesimal, unscientific usability enhancements are so subjective as to be irrelevant. Change certainly favors the young, and is hardest on the older generations; but true positive change has historically been accomplished incrementally through evolution (Windows 3.1 - XP, parts of 7). Yet nowadays, it's trying for revolution. Choice is no longer en vogue. And this attitude is ... pervasive. And that is absolutely terrifying.
- byuu 12y ago
  Did Microsoft miss that memo with Ribbon? Not only do they pack way more than your average toolbar in there, they also resort to packing even more buttons into your titlebar. But I'm sure you know that trendiness is cyclical. I just want off the treadmill.

heinrich5991 12y ago

He probably means the word just in the sense that e.g. Wiktionary defines: Pertaining to a current or recent time and style; not ancient.[1] [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modern#Adjective https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/modern#Adjective EDIT: And by old, he probably means "old-style".

keithpeter 12y ago
So XFCE 4.12 is a modern UI according to your definition, having just been released.
- wodenokoto 12y ago
  Now you are being snarky.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    Well perhaps I'll confess to a little licence with this last reply. I really find use of the M word strange in relation to UIs. The whole idea of a GUI is, what, 40 years old?

wodenokoto 12y ago

I mean old in the time-line of GUI, not human history. The modern design trend is minimal widgets and minimal chrome, where as older design trend are heavier on buttons and chrome.

keithpeter 12y ago
Is this essentially a fashion choice then? Is there an underlying reason for minimal widgets and chrome?
- byuu 12y ago
  Yes. It's a pervasive attitude as of late that "users are stupid; so kill all the options for choice" and "older = worse; newer = better" Think of it like learning Dvorak. Sure, in theory, by some arbitrary histrionics, these new UIs are 3% more "effective". There's no real objective proof of it, but people just feel like it is. And hell, maybe it really is! So to gain that 3% advantage, they want you to throw out 20 years of muscle memory and familiarity. They want you to throw away all that you're used to and retrain yourself again and again. And sure, maybe after enough time, you might actually like it a little bit more. But all of the time you've wasted relearning everything will never make up for the tiny, marginal increase in efficiency you gained. Nor for all you had to give up to get there. But this attitude of eternal improvement never ends. You jump on Dvorak because it's such an improvement, and you spend months, maybe years, getting up to your native speed again ... and along comes Colemak, but now it has competition with Workman. Which do you choose? Colemak or Workman? Gnome 3 or Unity? Gotta throw away that Qwerty and Dvorak mechanical keyboard; gotta throw away all those old GTK2 UIs; and start over. The infinitesimal, unscientific usability enhancements are so subjective as to be irrelevant. Change certainly favors the young, and is hardest on the older generations; but true positive change has historically been accomplished incrementally through evolution (Windows 3.1 - XP, parts of 7). Yet nowadays, it's trying for revolution. Choice is no longer en vogue. And this attitude is ... pervasive. And that is absolutely terrifying.
byuu 12y ago
Did Microsoft miss that memo with Ribbon? Not only do they pack way more than your average toolbar in there, they also resort to packing even more buttons into your titlebar. But I'm sure you know that trendiness is cyclical. I just want off the treadmill.