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Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow?

Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

trevelyan 12y ago
Come on. The complaints are about the inegalitarian way market competition is used to drive down wages in specific sectors where workers are politically marginalized (tech rather than law, finance, medicine). People who suffer from this discrimination are not wrong to object to the selective commodification of their labour. Additionally, the market-based alternative to H1-B is higher wages for domestic staff and expanded (and higher paying) contracting work abroad.
coldtea 12y ago
>what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers... If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... >* Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!* Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion. In any other case, and assuming you're not racist, the problem is "paying less", not "paying black people", just in the case of Indian developers the problem is paying them less than Americans for work they do in the US. And yeah, back in the day those Jim Crow employers also thought themselves very generous for giving those blacks a job. After all, like those "poor Indian developers", they would starve without it, so they would better appreciate it, even if it's smaller than what they'd pay whites...
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Indians born in India are people too, yet people are advocating for economic protectionism against them. (Really, they are - I live in India, so if they weren't I'd be super lonely.) You drew an arbitrary line at "patriotism" before. Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference? Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion. It's unclear to me how it would be a logical conclusion even if one did believe blacks are inferior on some dimension. Could you explain?
  - dropit_sphere 12y ago
    > Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference? Not just mine, but the vast majority of the US. And "personal preference" goes by a name---voting.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      So basically, only thing wrong with Jim Crow is that it is now unpopular? And if it becomes popular again, we should bring it back? Democracy is a pretty scary moral philosophy.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        >So basically, only thing wrong with Jim Crow is that it is now unpopular? And if it becomes popular again, we should bring it back? Why, has there been another measure of good in human history? (If one doesn't believe in any divine being handing down laws that is). And I don't get the "moral high ground in hindsight" thing. If you lived in 1890, statistics say you'd most probably be all for Jim Crow too. >Democracy is a pretty scary moral philosophy. Better than the capitalism, which has no morals at all outside what society enforces upon it. If it could sell crack to small children or use people as slaves it would (and it does). Where the main justification is the BS fabrication that "egotism works for the good of all in the end".
        12y ago
- Potando 12y ago
  > If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... I agree, but it would have to come with granting an H1B to every applicant or having an open door immigration policy. Otherwise it's not paying them the same, it's "segregating" them to India where they have to suffer lower wages. Much like black people not being allowed to work in high paying jobs. It's amazing that people can believe it's wrong to discriminate against race (accident of birth) while at the same time insist on discrimination against nationality (almost the same accident of birth).

trevelyan 12y ago

Come on. The complaints are about the inegalitarian way market competition is used to drive down wages in specific sectors where workers are politically marginalized (tech rather than law, finance, medicine). People who suffer from this discrimination are not wrong to object to the selective commodification of their labour. Additionally, the market-based alternative to H1-B is higher wages for domestic staff and expanded (and higher paying) contracting work abroad.

coldtea 12y ago

>what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? Mostly that blacks have equal rights and are people too, so they should be paid the same. You know, like those Indians employers bring in so that can pay them less than American developers... If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... >* Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!* Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion. In any other case, and assuming you're not racist, the problem is "paying less", not "paying black people", just in the case of Indian developers the problem is paying them less than Americans for work they do in the US. And yeah, back in the day those Jim Crow employers also thought themselves very generous for giving those blacks a job. After all, like those "poor Indian developers", they would starve without it, so they would better appreciate it, even if it's smaller than what they'd pay whites...

yummyfajitas 12y ago
Indians born in India are people too, yet people are advocating for economic protectionism against them. (Really, they are - I live in India, so if they weren't I'd be super lonely.) You drew an arbitrary line at "patriotism" before. Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference? Only if one believed that black are somehow inferior would that be a logical conclusion. It's unclear to me how it would be a logical conclusion even if one did believe blacks are inferior on some dimension. Could you explain?
- dropit_sphere 12y ago
  > Why "patriotism (USA)" rather than "white nationalism" or "patriotism (CA)"? Just your personal preference? Not just mine, but the vast majority of the US. And "personal preference" goes by a name---voting.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    So basically, only thing wrong with Jim Crow is that it is now unpopular? And if it becomes popular again, we should bring it back? Democracy is a pretty scary moral philosophy.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >So basically, only thing wrong with Jim Crow is that it is now unpopular? And if it becomes popular again, we should bring it back? Why, has there been another measure of good in human history? (If one doesn't believe in any divine being handing down laws that is). And I don't get the "moral high ground in hindsight" thing. If you lived in 1890, statistics say you'd most probably be all for Jim Crow too. >Democracy is a pretty scary moral philosophy. Better than the capitalism, which has no morals at all outside what society enforces upon it. If it could sell crack to small children or use people as slaves it would (and it does). Where the main justification is the BS fabrication that "egotism works for the good of all in the end".
      - 12y ago
Potando 12y ago
> If they are all for equality and against "arbitrary lines", they can start by paying those immigrant workers the same... I agree, but it would have to come with granting an H1B to every applicant or having an open door immigration policy. Otherwise it's not paying them the same, it's "segregating" them to India where they have to suffer lower wages. Much like black people not being allowed to work in high paying jobs. It's amazing that people can believe it's wrong to discriminate against race (accident of birth) while at the same time insist on discrimination against nationality (almost the same accident of birth).