4 ms·

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are wi

A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting salary is often $20,000 or less. In an ironic inversion of the H-1B debate, apparently foreign airlines in rapidly-expanding markets are quite happy to pay significantly higher wages to snag US-trained pilots.

cstejerean 12y ago
The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wealth.
- yardie 12y ago
  The best routes and best pay are on the long haul, wide body flights. These planes are in the 100s of millions of dollar range. I think it's completely logical an airline would trust their most expensive high revenue flights to the pilots that have seen some shit and negotiated it successfully. The real reason of the pilot shortage is because the FAA now requires commercial pilots to have 1500 hours of flight time before they can work for an airline. Flight schools will give you 300-400 hours and the rest you have to make up some how. Just like every job these days, everyone wants experienced, entry level candidates.
crdb 12y ago
Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've seen some eye watering packages in China for the same reason, including base salaries of 600k and 750k respectively for someone who was making 300k, at a large institution and a small hedge fund. Obviously, with the local cost of living the difference is magnified. Personally, moving to Asia was the best career move I ever made; the local economies grow at 15% a year, the local companies grow even faster, and there's a real lack of talent locally vs the ultra-competitive US market. Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them. Where do I sign up?
  - crdb 12y ago
    Unfortunately most companies/managers don't want to try it. I'm structuring my own company never to have a physical presence beyond the Hong Kong legal offices, but we are a big exception. Judging by your other comments you're a fan of Thailand so maybe try Lazada, they are hiring a ridiculous number of engineers at the moment, salaries are very high for Bangkok, but the codebase (and politics, just from the size) might be a little painful, and a lot of the development is actually happening in Vietnam, which might be another barrier. If you want loads of money for boring work, the best way is still to come to Singapore/HK, get any job to get a visa, and gradually contact every recruiter you can. Experienced "leadership capable" developers being rare they'll have plenty of spots, but none of them are going up on websites. The speed at which the market move is staggering, in one occasion I had an offer 2 hours after meeting the company person, and visas take about a week in Singapore.
    - johnloeber 12y ago
      These are some very interesting insights that you are sharing. I'd love to hear more about this -- southeast Asia seems like an exceptionally lucrative place to work if you are "playing it right." Do you have an e-mail address that I can write a few (short) questions to?
      - crdb 12y ago
        hn.crdb at the Mountain View company.
- fcuk 12y ago
  Very interesting. I grew up in Hong Kong and most of my friends are still earning < 100k. Most tech firms don't even have a development team in Hong Kong. For example, Google and Facebook only have a sales team there. Apple and Yahoo are the exceptions but even then the development team is small. I wonder what company you are working for. As far as I know the demand for tech workers is pretty low over there.
markdown 12y ago
I'm in Fiji. There are American pilots flying for great wages here. Fijian pilots get the shaft though, and only barely get by on their wages. The Fijians then take jobs in places the americans find harder to stomach (Papua New Guinea, the middle east, etc) and make more than the American expat pilots in Fiji do.

cstejerean 12y ago

The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wealth.

yardie 12y ago
The best routes and best pay are on the long haul, wide body flights. These planes are in the 100s of millions of dollar range. I think it's completely logical an airline would trust their most expensive high revenue flights to the pilots that have seen some shit and negotiated it successfully. The real reason of the pilot shortage is because the FAA now requires commercial pilots to have 1500 hours of flight time before they can work for an airline. Flight schools will give you 300-400 hours and the rest you have to make up some how. Just like every job these days, everyone wants experienced, entry level candidates.

crdb 12y ago

Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've seen some eye watering packages in China for the same reason, including base salaries of 600k and 750k respectively for someone who was making 300k, at a large institution and a small hedge fund. Obviously, with the local cost of living the difference is magnified. Personally, moving to Asia was the best career move I ever made; the local economies grow at 15% a year, the local companies grow even faster, and there's a real lack of talent locally vs the ultra-competitive US market. Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them. Where do I sign up?
- crdb 12y ago
  Unfortunately most companies/managers don't want to try it. I'm structuring my own company never to have a physical presence beyond the Hong Kong legal offices, but we are a big exception. Judging by your other comments you're a fan of Thailand so maybe try Lazada, they are hiring a ridiculous number of engineers at the moment, salaries are very high for Bangkok, but the codebase (and politics, just from the size) might be a little painful, and a lot of the development is actually happening in Vietnam, which might be another barrier. If you want loads of money for boring work, the best way is still to come to Singapore/HK, get any job to get a visa, and gradually contact every recruiter you can. Experienced "leadership capable" developers being rare they'll have plenty of spots, but none of them are going up on websites. The speed at which the market move is staggering, in one occasion I had an offer 2 hours after meeting the company person, and visas take about a week in Singapore.
  - johnloeber 12y ago
    These are some very interesting insights that you are sharing. I'd love to hear more about this -- southeast Asia seems like an exceptionally lucrative place to work if you are "playing it right." Do you have an e-mail address that I can write a few (short) questions to?
    - crdb 12y ago
      hn.crdb at the Mountain View company.
fcuk 12y ago
Very interesting. I grew up in Hong Kong and most of my friends are still earning < 100k. Most tech firms don't even have a development team in Hong Kong. For example, Google and Facebook only have a sales team there. Apple and Yahoo are the exceptions but even then the development team is small. I wonder what company you are working for. As far as I know the demand for tech workers is pretty low over there.

markdown 12y ago

I'm in Fiji. There are American pilots flying for great wages here. Fijian pilots get the shaft though, and only barely get by on their wages. The Fijians then take jobs in places the americans find harder to stomach (Papua New Guinea, the middle east, etc) and make more than the American expat pilots in Fiji do.