4 ms·

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly

by Potando 12y ago

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley?

swatow 12y ago
Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle class will arise. The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The right want people to believe that all government intervention in the economy is equally bad, whether it is fixing the price of rent, providing medical services, or a negative income tax. That said, I don't think H-1Bs are best used on average paid contractors. I know people earning a lot more money who missed out on the lottery. These people could have contributed a lot more to the economy. EDIT: Added scare quotes around "right" in response to a comment.
- NhanH 12y ago
  I agree with most of the things you said, except on minor point, which I don't know is a wording issue or not: there is no "right to high wages", at best, it's a privileged.
  - swatow 12y ago
    I meant that the left considered it a right, but I added scare quotes (which I use too much anyway) to be clearer
- cubano 12y ago
  > The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The "government" is nothing but a collection of people who have used political acumen, and not technical or business skills, to gain control of a system. They are really no different from the executives whom control various Fortune 500 companies, so in the long run, it seems unlikely that they will behave in a different matter, or ever put your wants and desires above theirs. At least market-based systems, as described by Hayek, have some built in incentives to reward those in power to keep those without it happy.
  - swatow 12y ago
    I think you're wrong about the government. It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. And I think most politicians truly believe in what they claim to stand for. So stating what the government should do is productive and important, because ultimately it guides what politicians do. The ideology I support is free market economics with generous redistribution and government services. This has been put into practice in Australia, NZ, Canada, the UK and Scandinavia. The only serious deviation is in the concessions made to the labour union movement, but these have been lessening with time.
    - cubano 12y ago
      > It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. I am 50 yo, and have seen 100's of politicians come and go over my years, and I can count on one hand how many I believe have these values that you mention. They all certainly try very, very hard to project this fiction, but time and time again, their actions have betrayed them. My experience, guided by intelligence, tells me that most people who dedicate their lives to politics are megalomaniacs whom are only in it for the power and glory.
    - Klockan 12y ago
      Their pay hinges on your belief that they care about you which is why they learn to act. Well acted kindness will always seem better than sincere kindness. Just look at movies if you don't believe me, the good actors there seem more living and real than your average joe on the street. And above all they wouldn't let others write their speeches if they were sincere.
coldtea 12y ago
>It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"? As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty". If those guys are so concerned about "poor Indians developers" how about paying them exactly the same as any American developer? It's not like they have a lower cost of living when they come to the US. So, do they consider them sub-human or something? Or maybe they are more concerned for the "I can exploit their poorness relative to our domestic wage demands and screw me fellow country-men". Oh, and it works both ways: next time some other country with cheaper wages than India developers a decent-ish IT education, those "poor Indian developers" would be dropped like dead weights in a race to the bottom... >If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley? Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"...
- Potando 12y ago
  > Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"... Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!

by Potando 12y ago

swatow 12y ago

Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle class will arise. The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The right want people to believe that all government intervention in the economy is equally bad, whether it is fixing the price of rent, providing medical services, or a negative income tax. That said, I don't think H-1Bs are best used on average paid contractors. I know people earning a lot more money who missed out on the lottery. These people could have contributed a lot more to the economy. EDIT: Added scare quotes around "right" in response to a comment.

NhanH 12y ago
I agree with most of the things you said, except on minor point, which I don't know is a wording issue or not: there is no "right to high wages", at best, it's a privileged.
- swatow 12y ago
  I meant that the left considered it a right, but I added scare quotes (which I use too much anyway) to be clearer
cubano 12y ago
> The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The "government" is nothing but a collection of people who have used political acumen, and not technical or business skills, to gain control of a system. They are really no different from the executives whom control various Fortune 500 companies, so in the long run, it seems unlikely that they will behave in a different matter, or ever put your wants and desires above theirs. At least market-based systems, as described by Hayek, have some built in incentives to reward those in power to keep those without it happy.
- swatow 12y ago
  I think you're wrong about the government. It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. And I think most politicians truly believe in what they claim to stand for. So stating what the government should do is productive and important, because ultimately it guides what politicians do. The ideology I support is free market economics with generous redistribution and government services. This has been put into practice in Australia, NZ, Canada, the UK and Scandinavia. The only serious deviation is in the concessions made to the labour union movement, but these have been lessening with time.
  - cubano 12y ago
    > It has many caring and dedicated people, who want to make the nation, and the world, better. I am 50 yo, and have seen 100's of politicians come and go over my years, and I can count on one hand how many I believe have these values that you mention. They all certainly try very, very hard to project this fiction, but time and time again, their actions have betrayed them. My experience, guided by intelligence, tells me that most people who dedicate their lives to politics are megalomaniacs whom are only in it for the power and glory.
  - Klockan 12y ago
    Their pay hinges on your belief that they care about you which is why they learn to act. Well acted kindness will always seem better than sincere kindness. Just look at movies if you don't believe me, the good actors there seem more living and real than your average joe on the street. And above all they wouldn't let others write their speeches if they were sincere.

coldtea 12y ago

>It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". Maybe because it was not intended to "lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty" but to "lower or keep the same american developer wages"? As if those US business owners give a rats arse about getting "poor Indian workers out of poverty". If those guys are so concerned about "poor Indians developers" how about paying them exactly the same as any American developer? It's not like they have a lower cost of living when they come to the US. So, do they consider them sub-human or something? Or maybe they are more concerned for the "I can exploit their poorness relative to our domestic wage demands and screw me fellow country-men". Oh, and it works both ways: next time some other country with cheaper wages than India developers a decent-ish IT education, those "poor Indian developers" would be dropped like dead weights in a race to the bottom... >If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley? Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"...

Potando 12y ago
> Perhaps because of this thing called patriotism, a.k.a. "do not piss where you live"... Serious question - why patriotism for their country in preference to their state, country, city, continent, or planet? I've heard that Texas people don't like the rest of the USA. Perhaps they'd be more inclined to disallow out of state workers because their patriotism is applied at a different level than other Americans?
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Or for that matter, while we are drawing arbitrary lines and applying economic protectionism, what's the intellectual argument against bringing back Jim Crow? If one wants an economic "justification", I'm sure a quick google search can find articles a lot like this one - a quick stats dump with no controls showing that black people get paid less. Look at those greedy employers lowering wages by hiring black people!