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New Data Show How Firms Like Infosys and Tata Abuse the H-1B Program

132 points by mafuyu 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
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- geebee 12y ago
  "Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where everyone can see your screen, requiring that you live in SF where the median priced house is over a mil, and demanding immediate plug and play developer with a a very narrow specialty skill set? I mean, they say they can't hire, but doesn't that mean they can't hire at the price they think they should get to pay? I do agree with you that one shouldn't conclude a person isn't high talented in software if he or she doesn't have a grad degree. Obviously there are ludicrously talented developers who don't have grad degree, or even any degree of that matter. Software is like that.
  - ubernostrum 12y ago
    A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting salary is often $20,000 or less. In an ironic inversion of the H-1B debate, apparently foreign airlines in rapidly-expanding markets are quite happy to pay significantly higher wages to snag US-trained pilots.
    - cstejerean 12y ago
      The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wealth.
      - yardie 12y ago
        The best routes and best pay are on the long haul, wide body flights. These planes are in the 100s of millions of dollar range. I think it's completely logical an airline would trust their most expensive high revenue flights to the pilots that have seen some shit and negotiated it successfully. The real reason of the pilot shortage is because the FAA now requires commercial pilots to have 1500 hours of flight time before they can work for an airline. Flight schools will give you 300-400 hours and the rest you have to make up some how. Just like every job these days, everyone wants experienced, entry level candidates.
    - crdb 12y ago
      Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've seen some eye watering packages in China for the same reason, including base salaries of 600k and 750k respectively for someone who was making 300k, at a large institution and a small hedge fund. Obviously, with the local cost of living the difference is magnified. Personally, moving to Asia was the best career move I ever made; the local economies grow at 15% a year, the local companies grow even faster, and there's a real lack of talent locally vs the ultra-competitive US market. Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
- jellicle 12y ago
  > Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat? I find that the supply of brain surgeons for $10,000/year is quite limited. There's huge demand for brain surgeons at $10K, and not enough supply of brain surgeons willing to work for that wage. We've had the job ad ("Brain Surgeon Wanted: $10K/year") posted on Monster for months. Whatever shall I do? If only there was some solution.
  - cubano 12y ago
    > If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat? This is an excellent point, and to add injury to this obvious insult to the IT developer class is the fact that corporate profits are through the roof [1] these days and have, in fact, been growing for years. Any free, non-manipulated labor market will always reward the workers with needed skills a higher wage to attract talent needed to keep the companies products competitive and the management looking good. It seems to me, at least, beyond obvious that corporations are using programs like the H-1B, the elimination of positions for developers over the age of 40, and pressure on managers to keep IT workers fearful of losing their jobs to artificially keep wages down. [1] http://qz.com/192725/what-another-record-year-of-corporate-profits-means-for-the-us-economy/ http://qz.com/192725/what-another-record-year-of-corporate-p...
- Zigurd 12y ago
  If you read the H1-B requirements, it's supposedly about bringing in talent that's unavailable at any price. Not just seat-warmers who can be billed out with a hefty margin by a "body shop." People with advanced degrees and unique skills should by all means be welcomed. Sending people back to India after they get degrees at MIT or Stanford is idiotic. But the stated intent of H1-Bs and cheap body shops are not compatible at all. This article is all about morale-sucking, wage-depressing, quality-destroying indentured servitude that actually takes away the ability of R&D-oriented firms from obtaining H1-Bs for vastly more deserving people.
- shawnee_ 12y ago
  There's an even larger issue driving this problem: As Table 1 shows, Infosys and Tata pay very low wages to their H-1B workers. The average wage for an H-1B employee at Infosys in FY13 was $70,882 and for Tata it was $65,565. Compare this to the average wage of a Computer Systems Analyst in Rosemead, CA (where SCE is located), which is $91,990 (according to the U.S. Department of Labor). That means Infosys and Tata save well over $20,000 per worker per year, by hiring an H-1B instead of a local U.S. worker earning the average wage. But at SCE specifically, the wage savings are much greater. When the H-1B worker isn't employed directly by the company seeking the "savings" (for example, Infosys or Tata), and instead is employed by a middleman outsourcing company, the worker is essentially a victim of double exploitation. In these situations, wages for the h1B workers become even more dismal. The outsourcing company takes a huge cut of the workers' earnings (which are usually hourly and without benefits) and then uses threatening tactics to essentially "scare" these workers into outputting more in less time, without overtime, etc. See also: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...
- coldtea 12y ago
  >But the author here claims that "H-1B is not about skills or skills gap" and cites as evidence the fact that the vast majority of the approved applicants have only a Bachelor's degree. Perhaps he's not familiar with the current state of the software engineering market, where an advanced degree is in no way a prerequisite to become a top-rated engineer? Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree or even no degree. But between "they found all this top-rated engineers with mere Bachelors" and "they got some cheaper developers for their gruntwork by shopping abroad" my bet is very much on the second case. It's what business owners do at every level, including manual labor where "top talent" doesn't matter much if at all... BESIDES, and this makes your point moot, they pay them less. If they considered them "top talent" they'd pay them as they do American developers, regardless of if they have a degree or not.
  - bdcravens 12y ago
    I don't even have a bachelor's degree, and I've been a developer since 1998.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Yeah, perhaps that's why I wrote: "Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree or even no degree.".
- joesmo 12y ago
  "Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply, and very little correlation with the candidate's formal education. There aren't any Master's of AngularJS degree programs." Any company offering remote work and a good salary.
- donw 12y ago
  While I have no comment on the parent article, I have done a lot of market research over the past few years, as part of a potential product to help companies hire better people, faster. In doing so, I've noticed that there are two primary ways that companies artificially limit themselves to a tiny pool of eligible people: One: An interview process based on trivia and logic puzzles, not "can this person drive success". This eliminates people that have years of industry experience, but that can't quite remember the solution to Four Knights on the spot. I have seen plenty of of "unqualified" people that work as consultants, and pull in large sums of money, solving business problems at companies where they could never get through the interview process. These people would have been great hires, but they were forced out due to bad process. Two: Requiring that candidates permanently relocate, nominally to a city with a very high cost-of-living, without paying a correspondingly high salary. This eliminates people with families, people with elderly parents, and so on. Money is rarely the problem if the company is otherwise flexible in terms of location. If you want, say, a parent with two kids to move to SF, you're going to need to pony up $160k+ a year. The same person in Boise would likely be happy at half that.
  - dminor 12y ago
    Three: not considering good programmers who don't have experience in the language(s) the company uses. We as programmers know it's not a big deal to learn another language, but somehow this hasn't translated to the hiring process.
    - donw 12y ago
      Not exactly. Learning a new programming language -- really learning it, and understanding how the ecosystem works -- is a three- to six-month process for most programmers. Let's say my team needed a new developer for a hardware project. I would probably not hire an experienced Ruby or Python dev that had no C experience. A few months of hacking C in their spare time on a personal project with an Arduino? Now I'm interested. Initiative and self-teaching are hugely important traits.
boca 12y ago
I don't understand why they would compare the average wage of all H1B workers spread throughout the US against that of a particular job title (Computer Systems Analyst) in Los Angeles CA. Wages obviously vary by job title and location. No surprises that wages in CA are higher. I searched to see what Infosys (1) and TCS (2) actually pay a "Computer Systems Analyst" and found: - For Infosys, there's only one result for Houston where the salary came out to be ~105K. - For TCS, it's around 85K-87K for San Franscisco area. Didn't find anything for Los Angeles. I can't vouch for the correctness of data but the site says they get it from the Department of Labor. Infosys and TCS would probably be using different job titles on their H1B petitions to try and get a lower wage determination. (1) http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=INFOSYS+LIMITED&job=COMPUTER+SYSTEMS+ANALYST http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=INFOSYS+LIMITED&job=COMPUTE... (2) http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+LIMITED&job=COMPUTER+SYSTEMS+ANALYST http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+L...
- visadoor 12y ago
  The article references data from 2013. This is a more complete list: http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-infosys-limited http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-infosys-limite... http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-tata-consultancy-services-limited http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-tata-consultan...
- akshatpradhan 12y ago
  This company on the HN "Who's hiring" thread is paying $60k-$80k: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127461 Or how about this company paying $70k-$90k https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128292 Or this one at $70-$100k https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128067 InfoSys and Tata actually seem to be paying more than these US Companies.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dominotw 12y ago
in other news water is still wet
Potando 12y ago
It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley?
- swatow 12y ago
  Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle class will arise. The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The right want people to believe that all government intervention in the economy is equally bad, whether it is fixing the price of rent, providing medical services, or a negative income tax. That said, I don't think H-1Bs are best used on average paid contractors. I know people earning a lot more money who missed out on the lottery. These people could have contributed a lot more to the economy. EDIT: Added scare quotes around "right" in response to a comment.
  - NhanH 12y ago
    I agree with most of the things you said, except on minor point, which I don't know is a wording issue or not: there is no "right to high wages", at best, it's a privileged.
    - swatow 12y ago
      I meant that the left considered it a right, but I added scare quotes (which I use too much anyway) to be clearer
  - 12y ago
martinald 12y ago
I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.
- Zikes 12y ago
  H-1B is intended to be temporary, 3-6 years. That means no need for pensions and no time to accumulate a great deal of raises or benefits. I would also imagine it's a lot easier to convince an employee to "go the extra mile" when you're dangling their ability to remain in the country over their head, especially if they're also applying for citizenship.
  - kchoudhu 12y ago
    This is America. Pensions have been dead for at least twenty years.
- logn 12y ago
  US companies bring in these consultants tens or hundreds at a time to a single office. If they hired locally for all these positions, they'd have to pay a lot higher than 20% premium. And if they flew in consultants from around the US, they'd be paying a fortune per hour (how many good USA developers seriously consider 100% travel jobs unless they pay ridiculously well?).
- codeonfire 12y ago
  For outsourcing firms its about institutionalized racism. In India, applicants put who their parents are, if they're married, where they were born, how old they are, height, weight, etc all on their resume. That is the kind of power they have if they only hire Indians. Why would they hire Americans who can sue them for discrimination? It's also not just about saving money. Modern day corporations (and probably old fashioned ones) are basically extortion pyramids. The entire livelihood of everybody with employees at a corporation depends on having complete control over their subordinates. Why would you hire someone that can quit when you piss them off. Corps hire people for management jobs on visa as well. Its all about control. The thought is you're nothing if you don't have people under control. It's sad that corporations work that way, but that doesn't change the fact that they do.
swatow 12y ago
People often conflate H-1B visas lowering wages, with H-1B holders earning less than market wages. Actually it is possible (and probably) that H-1B holders earn the same wages as their equivalents. The presence of the H-1B workers increases the supply of labor, and lowers wages for everyone. But it happens simultaneously so that at no time are the H-1B holders earning less. It's interesting to me that in order to deal with this inconsistency, people have basically invented the myth that it's hard to shift jobs while on an H-1B, and thus H-1B holders are like "indentured servants". The reality is for most H-1B holders the job market is no different, as long as they have the visa, which depends on the government, not their company.
mc32 12y ago
Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of (illegal) immigrants --farmers, even descendants of immigrants oppose amnesty because that would result in the help actually getting legal jobs which pay more. But here, in the case of H1Bs, people seem to have a strong dislike for them. They are just people looking for jobs like anyone else. Is the implicit argument we should have a different system to allow a greater supply of tech immigrants but with a more flexible visa, maybe even grant residency status thus eliminating this kind of soft exploitation?
- codeonfire 12y ago
  >Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."
  - mc32 12y ago
    Yes, I understand that. But that can be said about any immigrant workforce. Immigrants increase the pool of locally available workers, but, it appears, people welcome the benefits of immigration till the benefits (cheaper products and services) take away (threaten income) from them. In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more and cheaper products... but as soon as that workforce threatens tech --uh-oh, no, we can't have that. Immigration bad.
    - codeonfire 12y ago
      Well, yes lots of Americans do care who comes into the country and from where and there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people also don't buy the cheapest meat, cheapest coffee, cheapest clothing, etc.
suprgeek 12y ago
Ron Hira is a charming fellow associated with the EPI. Check out what VivekW says about him http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/840005/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/840005/ (wile VivekW is not exactly an "Unbiased" commentator). So as not to keep this ad-homoniem the data comparison is silly Avg & Median wages On one side vs Specific SoCal wages on the other? That said some of the criticisms are valid: TCS, Infosys, Wipro & Cognizant are terrible at taking care of their US employees. They very rarely get a chance at a greencard among other exploitative practices. Unfortunately Ron is sabotaging his own argument by using flaky data & being a tool.
nnd 12y ago
Breaking news! US immigration system is still terribly broken.
panini_tech 12y ago
Pakistani author out to discredit Indian cos. Thats all it is...
devish 12y ago
Well then stop buying and manufacturing from/in China, believe me it will create far more jobs as compared to those "eaten up by immigrants."
arcticf0x 12y ago
The bitter truth is, workers from TCS and Infosys are able to do the job more efficiently than their american counterparts with a lesser pay. This system as a whole is beneficial for the US economy, I don't think they will change it in near future.

132 points by mafuyu 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

geebee 12y ago
"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply" My problems with this statement is that you didn't mention pay or working conditions. Are they hiring for general talent, offering 200k a year with a nice private office? Are they offering 100k, forcing people to work in a loud open office where everyone can see your screen, requiring that you live in SF where the median priced house is over a mil, and demanding immediate plug and play developer with a a very narrow specialty skill set? I mean, they say they can't hire, but doesn't that mean they can't hire at the price they think they should get to pay? I do agree with you that one shouldn't conclude a person isn't high talented in software if he or she doesn't have a grad degree. Obviously there are ludicrously talented developers who don't have grad degree, or even any degree of that matter. Software is like that.
- ubernostrum 12y ago
  A good analogy is the so-called "pilot shortage" among US-based airlines. There are plenty of pilots around; there just aren't enough pilots anymore who are willing to work for the wages and conditions that exist at the entry level of those airlines. A common figure I've seen quoted is that the education, training and certification required to become an airline pilot comes in around $250,000 total, while the starting salary is often $20,000 or less. In an ironic inversion of the H-1B debate, apparently foreign airlines in rapidly-expanding markets are quite happy to pay significantly higher wages to snag US-trained pilots.
  - cstejerean 12y ago
    The problem with pilot wages though is entirely due to the pilot unions of the various airlines. Those with seniority get to pick the best routes and can earn $250-300k. The new pilots however end up working terrible routes and earn 1/10th of that. Overall there is a huge amount of money going towards pilot pay because pilot unions have huge negotiating power. But the unions have determined how to distribute that wealth.
    - yardie 12y ago
      The best routes and best pay are on the long haul, wide body flights. These planes are in the 100s of millions of dollar range. I think it's completely logical an airline would trust their most expensive high revenue flights to the pilots that have seen some shit and negotiated it successfully. The real reason of the pilot shortage is because the FAA now requires commercial pilots to have 1500 hours of flight time before they can work for an airline. Flight schools will give you 300-400 hours and the rest you have to make up some how. Just like every job these days, everyone wants experienced, entry level candidates.
  - crdb 12y ago
    Not just pilots. The wages in Hong Kong that you can get (source: headhunters approaching me) are literally multiples of US or EU rates. Amongst others I was offered USD 350k + bonus to head a data science team - and all I have is an unrelated engineering degree and three years' experience. This kind of package would be hard to get for a freshly minted Harvard MBA at a major bulge bracket bank... In finance, I've seen some eye watering packages in China for the same reason, including base salaries of 600k and 750k respectively for someone who was making 300k, at a large institution and a small hedge fund. Obviously, with the local cost of living the difference is magnified. Personally, moving to Asia was the best career move I ever made; the local economies grow at 15% a year, the local companies grow even faster, and there's a real lack of talent locally vs the ultra-competitive US market. Whenever I can, I try to convince companies here to hire Americans or Europeans remotely or relocate them.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
jellicle 12y ago
> Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat? I find that the supply of brain surgeons for $10,000/year is quite limited. There's huge demand for brain surgeons at $10K, and not enough supply of brain surgeons willing to work for that wage. We've had the job ad ("Brain Surgeon Wanted: $10K/year") posted on Monster for months. Whatever shall I do? If only there was some solution.
- cubano 12y ago
  > If any of that were true, wages would be going up, wouldn't they? Is there any company that couldn't hire someone by paying higher wages? Why are developer wages absolutely flat? This is an excellent point, and to add injury to this obvious insult to the IT developer class is the fact that corporate profits are through the roof [1] these days and have, in fact, been growing for years. Any free, non-manipulated labor market will always reward the workers with needed skills a higher wage to attract talent needed to keep the companies products competitive and the management looking good. It seems to me, at least, beyond obvious that corporations are using programs like the H-1B, the elimination of positions for developers over the age of 40, and pressure on managers to keep IT workers fearful of losing their jobs to artificially keep wages down. [1] http://qz.com/192725/what-another-record-year-of-corporate-profits-means-for-the-us-economy/ http://qz.com/192725/what-another-record-year-of-corporate-p...
Zigurd 12y ago
If you read the H1-B requirements, it's supposedly about bringing in talent that's unavailable at any price. Not just seat-warmers who can be billed out with a hefty margin by a "body shop." People with advanced degrees and unique skills should by all means be welcomed. Sending people back to India after they get degrees at MIT or Stanford is idiotic. But the stated intent of H1-Bs and cheap body shops are not compatible at all. This article is all about morale-sucking, wage-depressing, quality-destroying indentured servitude that actually takes away the ability of R&D-oriented firms from obtaining H1-Bs for vastly more deserving people.
shawnee_ 12y ago
There's an even larger issue driving this problem: As Table 1 shows, Infosys and Tata pay very low wages to their H-1B workers. The average wage for an H-1B employee at Infosys in FY13 was $70,882 and for Tata it was $65,565. Compare this to the average wage of a Computer Systems Analyst in Rosemead, CA (where SCE is located), which is $91,990 (according to the U.S. Department of Labor). That means Infosys and Tata save well over $20,000 per worker per year, by hiring an H-1B instead of a local U.S. worker earning the average wage. But at SCE specifically, the wage savings are much greater. When the H-1B worker isn't employed directly by the company seeking the "savings" (for example, Infosys or Tata), and instead is employed by a middleman outsourcing company, the worker is essentially a victim of double exploitation. In these situations, wages for the h1B workers become even more dismal. The outsourcing company takes a huge cut of the workers' earnings (which are usually hourly and without benefits) and then uses threatening tactics to essentially "scare" these workers into outputting more in less time, without overtime, etc. See also: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134...
coldtea 12y ago
>But the author here claims that "H-1B is not about skills or skills gap" and cites as evidence the fact that the vast majority of the approved applicants have only a Bachelor's degree. Perhaps he's not familiar with the current state of the software engineering market, where an advanced degree is in no way a prerequisite to become a top-rated engineer? Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree or even no degree. But between "they found all this top-rated engineers with mere Bachelors" and "they got some cheaper developers for their gruntwork by shopping abroad" my bet is very much on the second case. It's what business owners do at every level, including manual labor where "top talent" doesn't matter much if at all... BESIDES, and this makes your point moot, they pay them less. If they considered them "top talent" they'd pay them as they do American developers, regardless of if they have a degree or not.
- bdcravens 12y ago
  I don't even have a bachelor's degree, and I've been a developer since 1998.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Yeah, perhaps that's why I wrote: "Sure, you can be a great developer with just a Bachelor degree or even no degree.".
joesmo 12y ago
"Find me any company that doesn't have a difficult time sourcing well-qualified Rails developers, or experienced JavaScript experts. There is huge demand, not enough supply, and very little correlation with the candidate's formal education. There aren't any Master's of AngularJS degree programs." Any company offering remote work and a good salary.
donw 12y ago
While I have no comment on the parent article, I have done a lot of market research over the past few years, as part of a potential product to help companies hire better people, faster. In doing so, I've noticed that there are two primary ways that companies artificially limit themselves to a tiny pool of eligible people: One: An interview process based on trivia and logic puzzles, not "can this person drive success". This eliminates people that have years of industry experience, but that can't quite remember the solution to Four Knights on the spot. I have seen plenty of of "unqualified" people that work as consultants, and pull in large sums of money, solving business problems at companies where they could never get through the interview process. These people would have been great hires, but they were forced out due to bad process. Two: Requiring that candidates permanently relocate, nominally to a city with a very high cost-of-living, without paying a correspondingly high salary. This eliminates people with families, people with elderly parents, and so on. Money is rarely the problem if the company is otherwise flexible in terms of location. If you want, say, a parent with two kids to move to SF, you're going to need to pony up $160k+ a year. The same person in Boise would likely be happy at half that.
- dminor 12y ago
  Three: not considering good programmers who don't have experience in the language(s) the company uses. We as programmers know it's not a big deal to learn another language, but somehow this hasn't translated to the hiring process.
  - donw 12y ago
    Not exactly. Learning a new programming language -- really learning it, and understanding how the ecosystem works -- is a three- to six-month process for most programmers. Let's say my team needed a new developer for a hardware project. I would probably not hire an experienced Ruby or Python dev that had no C experience. A few months of hacking C in their spare time on a personal project with an Arduino? Now I'm interested. Initiative and self-teaching are hugely important traits.

boca 12y ago

I don't understand why they would compare the average wage of all H1B workers spread throughout the US against that of a particular job title (Computer Systems Analyst) in Los Angeles CA. Wages obviously vary by job title and location. No surprises that wages in CA are higher. I searched to see what Infosys (1) and TCS (2) actually pay a "Computer Systems Analyst" and found: - For Infosys, there's only one result for Houston where the salary came out to be ~105K. - For TCS, it's around 85K-87K for San Franscisco area. Didn't find anything for Los Angeles. I can't vouch for the correctness of data but the site says they get it from the Department of Labor. Infosys and TCS would probably be using different job titles on their H1B petitions to try and get a lower wage determination. (1) http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=INFOSYS+LIMITED&job=COMPUTER+SYSTEMS+ANALYST http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=INFOSYS+LIMITED&job=COMPUTE... (2) http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+LIMITED&job=COMPUTER+SYSTEMS+ANALYST http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=TATA+CONSULTANCY+SERVICES+L...

visadoor 12y ago
The article references data from 2013. This is a more complete list: http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-infosys-limited http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-infosys-limite... http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-tata-consultancy-services-limited http://visadoor.com/h1bvisa-by-companies-2014-tata-consultan...
akshatpradhan 12y ago
This company on the HN "Who's hiring" thread is paying $60k-$80k: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9127461 Or how about this company paying $70k-$90k https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128292 Or this one at $70-$100k https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9128067 InfoSys and Tata actually seem to be paying more than these US Companies.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dominotw 12y ago

in other news water is still wet

Potando 12y ago

It's strange how action which has apparently helped to lift tens of thousands of poor Indian workers out of poverty is portrayed as a "scandal". There's clearly a big labor pool willing to work for lower pay than Americans. Give them a chance at a better life! If Californians dislike foreign workers so much, why are they still allowing people from the midwest to work there? Shouldn't they be throttled too to keep wages high in silicon valley?

swatow 12y ago
Free market economics is often intentionally misunderstood because it doesn't fit into anyone's ideologies. The left ignore the benefits of the free market, and pretend that there is a better system out there. They selfishly expect workers the developing world to respect the "right" of the Western middle class to high wages, as if magically other opportunities that don't involve competing with the Western middle class will arise. The right want people to think that capitalism is magic, because they don't even want redistribution, which mainstream economists believe is something the market cannot do itself, and must be done by the government. The right want people to believe that all government intervention in the economy is equally bad, whether it is fixing the price of rent, providing medical services, or a negative income tax. That said, I don't think H-1Bs are best used on average paid contractors. I know people earning a lot more money who missed out on the lottery. These people could have contributed a lot more to the economy. EDIT: Added scare quotes around "right" in response to a comment.
- NhanH 12y ago
  I agree with most of the things you said, except on minor point, which I don't know is a wording issue or not: there is no "right to high wages", at best, it's a privileged.
  - swatow 12y ago
    I meant that the left considered it a right, but I added scare quotes (which I use too much anyway) to be clearer
- 12y ago

martinald 12y ago

I find it difficult to understand why these companies would go to such lengths to save at absolute most 15-20% on salary. Even if there were no legal or immigration costs (which there definitely is), it seems to me they could easily do the same by getting someone from a less prosperous part of the US and moving them to, say, CA. I'm sure this happens all the time.

Zikes 12y ago
H-1B is intended to be temporary, 3-6 years. That means no need for pensions and no time to accumulate a great deal of raises or benefits. I would also imagine it's a lot easier to convince an employee to "go the extra mile" when you're dangling their ability to remain in the country over their head, especially if they're also applying for citizenship.
- kchoudhu 12y ago
  This is America. Pensions have been dead for at least twenty years.
logn 12y ago
US companies bring in these consultants tens or hundreds at a time to a single office. If they hired locally for all these positions, they'd have to pay a lot higher than 20% premium. And if they flew in consultants from around the US, they'd be paying a fortune per hour (how many good USA developers seriously consider 100% travel jobs unless they pay ridiculously well?).
codeonfire 12y ago
For outsourcing firms its about institutionalized racism. In India, applicants put who their parents are, if they're married, where they were born, how old they are, height, weight, etc all on their resume. That is the kind of power they have if they only hire Indians. Why would they hire Americans who can sue them for discrimination? It's also not just about saving money. Modern day corporations (and probably old fashioned ones) are basically extortion pyramids. The entire livelihood of everybody with employees at a corporation depends on having complete control over their subordinates. Why would you hire someone that can quit when you piss them off. Corps hire people for management jobs on visa as well. Its all about control. The thought is you're nothing if you don't have people under control. It's sad that corporations work that way, but that doesn't change the fact that they do.

swatow 12y ago

People often conflate H-1B visas lowering wages, with H-1B holders earning less than market wages. Actually it is possible (and probably) that H-1B holders earn the same wages as their equivalents. The presence of the H-1B workers increases the supply of labor, and lowers wages for everyone. But it happens simultaneously so that at no time are the H-1B holders earning less. It's interesting to me that in order to deal with this inconsistency, people have basically invented the myth that it's hard to shift jobs while on an H-1B, and thus H-1B holders are like "indentured servants". The reality is for most H-1B holders the job market is no different, as long as they have the visa, which depends on the government, not their company.

mc32 12y ago

Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? They are an immigrant workforce just like the people who cross the border illegally. Yes, immigrants, by increasing supply do have a depressing effect on wages, but, in a global economy, don't we also believe in a global workforce? People seem to have a problem with H1Bs, but people are happy to enjoy the benefits of cheap fruit and vegetables possible with labor of (illegal) immigrants --farmers, even descendants of immigrants oppose amnesty because that would result in the help actually getting legal jobs which pay more. But here, in the case of H1Bs, people seem to have a strong dislike for them. They are just people looking for jobs like anyone else. Is the implicit argument we should have a different system to allow a greater supply of tech immigrants but with a more flexible visa, maybe even grant residency status thus eliminating this kind of soft exploitation?

codeonfire 12y ago
>Can someone explain to me why H1Bs are problematic? Did you read the article? Here are the subtitles from the article and the first line of the referenced article: - Lower wages - H-1B is not a bridge to permanent immigration - H-1B is not about skills or skills gap "Information technology workers at Southern California Edison (SCE) are being laid off and replaced by workers from India."
- mc32 12y ago
  Yes, I understand that. But that can be said about any immigrant workforce. Immigrants increase the pool of locally available workers, but, it appears, people welcome the benefits of immigration till the benefits (cheaper products and services) take away (threaten income) from them. In other words, would we care if Bangladeshis or Siberian Russians displaced Walmart, or farm workers? Probably not. We'd say, yay, more and cheaper products... but as soon as that workforce threatens tech --uh-oh, no, we can't have that. Immigration bad.
  - codeonfire 12y ago
    Well, yes lots of Americans do care who comes into the country and from where and there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people also don't buy the cheapest meat, cheapest coffee, cheapest clothing, etc.

suprgeek 12y ago

Ron Hira is a charming fellow associated with the EPI. Check out what VivekW says about him http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/840005/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/840005/ (wile VivekW is not exactly an "Unbiased" commentator). So as not to keep this ad-homoniem the data comparison is silly Avg & Median wages On one side vs Specific SoCal wages on the other? That said some of the criticisms are valid: TCS, Infosys, Wipro & Cognizant are terrible at taking care of their US employees. They very rarely get a chance at a greencard among other exploitative practices. Unfortunately Ron is sabotaging his own argument by using flaky data & being a tool.

nnd 12y ago

Breaking news! US immigration system is still terribly broken.

panini_tech 12y ago

Pakistani author out to discredit Indian cos. Thats all it is...

devish 12y ago

Well then stop buying and manufacturing from/in China, believe me it will create far more jobs as compared to those "eaten up by immigrants."

arcticf0x 12y ago

The bitter truth is, workers from TCS and Infosys are able to do the job more efficiently than their american counterparts with a lesser pay. This system as a whole is beneficial for the US economy, I don't think they will change it in near future.