5 ms·

I only do headphones. I can recognize 160kbps mp3 from 320kbps. Decent headphone setup is around $500, with performance of a few milliwatts. Now scale power

by jkot 12y ago

I only do headphones. I can recognize 160kbps mp3 from 320kbps. Decent headphone setup is around $500, with performance of a few milliwatts. Now scale power 1000x, I bet price will go up as well. Probably exponentially.

signa11 12y ago
> Decent headphone setup is around $500 may you please suggest a couple in that range ? i currently have a b&w p5, which i am thinking of upgrading...
- jkot 12y ago
  It is not just headphones, but also amplifier and DA. My stuff is 10 years old, so I am probably not best adviser. And I have more sets, one is bit more pricey. Anyway for daily beating at office I would recommend DT 770 PRO, 80 Ohms. In my opinion best closed studio headphones for reasonable price. Mine are ten years old now. I believe in-ear demages hearing. I also dont like active noise cancellation. Also check some foldable options if you travel a lot. You will also need USB soundcard with headphones amplifier. Some devices combine both. I have EMU Tracker Pre USB 2.0, but thats no longer sold. Not sure what today market is, but this seems to have good reviews: http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/ http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B0...
  - dublinben 12y ago
    An expensive USB soundcard and amplifier are absolutely not necessary. The built-in audio of a Macbook Pro (this is HN we're talking about) is more than good enough.
    - jkot 12y ago
      Bullshit. Thats are 80 ohm professional studio headphones. Wasted money without amplifier. Even novice can pickup difference in 10 minutes.
      - dublinben 12y ago
        You don't need to buy 80 ohm professional studio headphones to get good sound quality.
      - frou_dh 12y ago
        I have experience using several good headphones (K701, HD650) amped and unamped in the past. At the moment, I happily use a set of 250 Ohm 770s straight out of a MBP. Sounds fantastic. Does this trigger you?
        jkot 12y ago
        I do it sometimes as well, I would not call sound fantastic, but its ok for movies and remastered (flat) music. But so does $120 Major. I just think it is really bad advice. Why buy expensive headphones optimised for amps without amp? Just waste of money.
        frou_dh 12y ago
        Waste of money is something that makes marginal gain. BadPhones -> GoodPhones is a much greater step than UnampedGoodPhones -> AmpedGoodPhones. --- (of course there's always an amp, Unamped just means no beefy one)
        jkot 12y ago
        I think we are two different threads. Signa11 already has good headphones, even amp and DA. Question is what headphones, DA and amp is best for upgrade. I am sorry, I just disagree that mac book pro is the answer.
        frou_dh 12y ago
        You -> dublinben -> you -> me is a very coherent thread. But yes, it's not worth arguing about unless we could all sit together and test some equipment.
    - JohnBooty 12y ago
      It's true: Apple tends to have very good headphone audio output compared to other phone/laptop manufacturers. The Asus, Acer, and Dell laptops I've used have had very noisy headphone output. But it's still noisier than well-regarded USB DAC/amps available for well below $100 or just a little over. (Fiio, Schiit, Audioquest, etc. are names to look into if anybody's interested) As a bonus, using a USB DAC+amp will save some wear and tear on your laptop's headphone jack. Those can wear out if you're plugging and unplugging your headphones several times a day over the course of several years. That is not an easy, fun, or cheap repair.
  - signa11 12y ago
    > ...recommend DT 770 PRO, 80 Ohms. In my opinion best closed studio headphones for reasonable price. thanks for the info. on the usb dac side i do have the audioengine-d3, which runs the p5...
    - jkot 12y ago
      hm, I am bit lost in this gadgets, but d3 seems like expensive imac stuff. Anyway its probably fine for now, great for traveling, and over time buy something better even if its second hand.
- msh 12y ago
  Here is a few options: http://www.marco.org/headphones-closed-portable http://www.marco.org/headphones-closed-portable
  - timc3 12y ago
    I think he might actually have a hearing problem, or badly setup equipment and his music taste is extremely narrow. The experience that he perceives in headphones he has reviewed I certainly haven’t experienced and is not the general response I hear on reviews. i.e. NAD HP50 does not have a weak treble or mediocre detail. Go and listen to headphones with your own music and make up your own mind.
- gcv 12y ago
  Sennbeiser HD600 or HD650 (very similar sound), AKG K7XX, Hifiman HE400. All open. Many other nice open headphones on the market, but those are best bang per buck. For closed, most are not good except the Beyerdynamic DT770 (and the far pricier Fostex TH900). You may consider an external DAC and amplifier if you listen to a laptop — this will help with case noise and power. Beware, however: this is where you get close to snake oil products. Most amps do not make a difference, and a lot depends on your source. An iPhone is an excellent source for most headphones, for example (including all of the above). A reasonable DAC-amp combo is the O2+ODAC, and it is DIY if you can solder. The Schiit stuff in the link above is pretty meh, even though it is often recommended (crappy volume pot in the cheaper units).
  - slantedview 12y ago
    I'd second the AKG K7XX and the Hifiman HE400. Both great headphones for the cost.
  - DiabloD3 12y ago
    I don't recommend the HE-400, but the HE-400i instead. The HE-400 has the old Hifiman headband, the old pads, and the old cable, and suffers from a boomy bass issue. Replacing the pads and cables (absolutely required, new pads fix boomy bass issue some but not all, old cable breaks easily) raise the cost to be almost as much as the HE-400i, and you can't ever fix the headband issue. The HD650/HD650 and AKG K701/Q701/Kxx/K712 family however I do agree with. Also, the DT770 isn't fully closed, its semi-open. The DT990 also isn't fully open, its semi-open. They are merely closer to each end of the spectrum, with DT880 in the middle of semi-open, but they're ALL semi-open. Disclosure: Former DT880/600 Premium owner, current HE-400i owner.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
legulere 12y ago
> I can recognize 160kbps mp3 from 320kbps This something that is possible. However I wonder if you really tested it, or if you just think that you can hear the difference. Often people in HiFI claim that they can hear a difference when in reality they can't. > Now scale power 1000x, I bet price will go up as well. Probably exponentially. As you go up with power you can often use techniques that are cheaper per watt in electrical engineering. Also size restrictions that you have with headphones fall away. I don't know why people always believe everything to be exponential. Anyway - with "normal HiFi" you have different problems than with headphones.
- jkot 12y ago
  Lets put it other way. I never experienced speakers, which give similar sound details as headphones.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Have you ever experienced headphones which give proper soundstage as speakers?
    - SoapSeller 12y ago
      I did, with the AKG K1000[0](They are very uncomfortable, btw). The problem with soundstage is that most recordings are made for speakers. Binaural recordings + headphones results in much better and much more realistic soundstage. With the shifting listing habits and the raise of digital distribution(which make it much easier to provide multiple mixes of the same recording) I was expecting to see more and more binaural recordings. Sadly it doesn't happen(yet?). [0] http://www.akg.com/pro/p/k1000 http://www.akg.com/pro/p/k1000.
- throwawayaway 12y ago
  yes i've really tested it, it's trivial to test, foobar2000 has an aba plugin, high hats and cymbals are smeared quite noticably by mp3 compression. 320 is the least bad. i think with sufficient volume you could probably hear the difference between wav and 320 too, but i haven't tested this.
auxym 12y ago
I won't dispute the fact that you can distinguish, 160k vs 320k. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm ready to believe people can hear artifacts at 160k even with the best encoders, especially if these people are trained for these artifacts, have a good headphone setup, and are listening to particular problematic passages (higher frequencies, transients, etc). However, just for information, there is a lot more to lossy audio compression than just bitrate. A song encoded with modern LAME with VBR at around 64k or 96k possibly sounds better than the same song encoded with a napster-era encoder at 192 CBR. Modern formats such as AAC or Vorbis are even more performant than LAME. I don't have hard data to back it up, but I think 99% of people would not differentiate between lossless and and lossy with a mid high quality setting (lame at v3-ish, whatever the equivalent is in the best aac encoder these days), even on a great headphone setup. Maybe if they were specifically looking for artifacts in particuliar problem samples.
ploxiln 12y ago
Totally believable. mp3 at 160kbps vs something better, can make a real difference. Headphones and DACs can make a real difference. 96KHz sample rate for playback? Anything which adds extra shielding and filtering on top of a to-spec $20 ethernet cable? Nope, that can't help.

by jkot 12y ago

signa11 12y ago

> Decent headphone setup is around $500 may you please suggest a couple in that range ? i currently have a b&w p5, which i am thinking of upgrading...

jkot 12y ago
It is not just headphones, but also amplifier and DA. My stuff is 10 years old, so I am probably not best adviser. And I have more sets, one is bit more pricey. Anyway for daily beating at office I would recommend DT 770 PRO, 80 Ohms. In my opinion best closed studio headphones for reasonable price. Mine are ten years old now. I believe in-ear demages hearing. I also dont like active noise cancellation. Also check some foldable options if you travel a lot. You will also need USB soundcard with headphones amplifier. Some devices combine both. I have EMU Tracker Pre USB 2.0, but thats no longer sold. Not sure what today market is, but this seems to have good reviews: http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B005VO7LG6/ http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10-USB-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B0...
- dublinben 12y ago
  An expensive USB soundcard and amplifier are absolutely not necessary. The built-in audio of a Macbook Pro (this is HN we're talking about) is more than good enough.
  - jkot 12y ago
    Bullshit. Thats are 80 ohm professional studio headphones. Wasted money without amplifier. Even novice can pickup difference in 10 minutes.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      You don't need to buy 80 ohm professional studio headphones to get good sound quality.
    - frou_dh 12y ago
      I have experience using several good headphones (K701, HD650) amped and unamped in the past. At the moment, I happily use a set of 250 Ohm 770s straight out of a MBP. Sounds fantastic. Does this trigger you?
      - jkot 12y ago
        I do it sometimes as well, I would not call sound fantastic, but its ok for movies and remastered (flat) music. But so does $120 Major. I just think it is really bad advice. Why buy expensive headphones optimised for amps without amp? Just waste of money.
        frou_dh 12y ago
        Waste of money is something that makes marginal gain. BadPhones -> GoodPhones is a much greater step than UnampedGoodPhones -> AmpedGoodPhones. --- (of course there's always an amp, Unamped just means no beefy one)
        jkot 12y ago
        I think we are two different threads. Signa11 already has good headphones, even amp and DA. Question is what headphones, DA and amp is best for upgrade. I am sorry, I just disagree that mac book pro is the answer.
        frou_dh 12y ago
        You -> dublinben -> you -> me is a very coherent thread. But yes, it's not worth arguing about unless we could all sit together and test some equipment.
  - JohnBooty 12y ago
    It's true: Apple tends to have very good headphone audio output compared to other phone/laptop manufacturers. The Asus, Acer, and Dell laptops I've used have had very noisy headphone output. But it's still noisier than well-regarded USB DAC/amps available for well below $100 or just a little over. (Fiio, Schiit, Audioquest, etc. are names to look into if anybody's interested) As a bonus, using a USB DAC+amp will save some wear and tear on your laptop's headphone jack. Those can wear out if you're plugging and unplugging your headphones several times a day over the course of several years. That is not an easy, fun, or cheap repair.
- signa11 12y ago
  > ...recommend DT 770 PRO, 80 Ohms. In my opinion best closed studio headphones for reasonable price. thanks for the info. on the usb dac side i do have the audioengine-d3, which runs the p5...
  - jkot 12y ago
    hm, I am bit lost in this gadgets, but d3 seems like expensive imac stuff. Anyway its probably fine for now, great for traveling, and over time buy something better even if its second hand.
msh 12y ago
Here is a few options: http://www.marco.org/headphones-closed-portable http://www.marco.org/headphones-closed-portable
- timc3 12y ago
  I think he might actually have a hearing problem, or badly setup equipment and his music taste is extremely narrow. The experience that he perceives in headphones he has reviewed I certainly haven’t experienced and is not the general response I hear on reviews. i.e. NAD HP50 does not have a weak treble or mediocre detail. Go and listen to headphones with your own music and make up your own mind.
gcv 12y ago
Sennbeiser HD600 or HD650 (very similar sound), AKG K7XX, Hifiman HE400. All open. Many other nice open headphones on the market, but those are best bang per buck. For closed, most are not good except the Beyerdynamic DT770 (and the far pricier Fostex TH900). You may consider an external DAC and amplifier if you listen to a laptop — this will help with case noise and power. Beware, however: this is where you get close to snake oil products. Most amps do not make a difference, and a lot depends on your source. An iPhone is an excellent source for most headphones, for example (including all of the above). A reasonable DAC-amp combo is the O2+ODAC, and it is DIY if you can solder. The Schiit stuff in the link above is pretty meh, even though it is often recommended (crappy volume pot in the cheaper units).
- slantedview 12y ago
  I'd second the AKG K7XX and the Hifiman HE400. Both great headphones for the cost.
- DiabloD3 12y ago
  I don't recommend the HE-400, but the HE-400i instead. The HE-400 has the old Hifiman headband, the old pads, and the old cable, and suffers from a boomy bass issue. Replacing the pads and cables (absolutely required, new pads fix boomy bass issue some but not all, old cable breaks easily) raise the cost to be almost as much as the HE-400i, and you can't ever fix the headband issue. The HD650/HD650 and AKG K701/Q701/Kxx/K712 family however I do agree with. Also, the DT770 isn't fully closed, its semi-open. The DT990 also isn't fully open, its semi-open. They are merely closer to each end of the spectrum, with DT880 in the middle of semi-open, but they're ALL semi-open. Disclosure: Former DT880/600 Premium owner, current HE-400i owner.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

legulere 12y ago

> I can recognize 160kbps mp3 from 320kbps This something that is possible. However I wonder if you really tested it, or if you just think that you can hear the difference. Often people in HiFI claim that they can hear a difference when in reality they can't. > Now scale power 1000x, I bet price will go up as well. Probably exponentially. As you go up with power you can often use techniques that are cheaper per watt in electrical engineering. Also size restrictions that you have with headphones fall away. I don't know why people always believe everything to be exponential. Anyway - with "normal HiFi" you have different problems than with headphones.

jkot 12y ago
Lets put it other way. I never experienced speakers, which give similar sound details as headphones.
- dublinben 12y ago
  Have you ever experienced headphones which give proper soundstage as speakers?
  - SoapSeller 12y ago
    I did, with the AKG K1000[0](They are very uncomfortable, btw). The problem with soundstage is that most recordings are made for speakers. Binaural recordings + headphones results in much better and much more realistic soundstage. With the shifting listing habits and the raise of digital distribution(which make it much easier to provide multiple mixes of the same recording) I was expecting to see more and more binaural recordings. Sadly it doesn't happen(yet?). [0] http://www.akg.com/pro/p/k1000 http://www.akg.com/pro/p/k1000.
throwawayaway 12y ago
yes i've really tested it, it's trivial to test, foobar2000 has an aba plugin, high hats and cymbals are smeared quite noticably by mp3 compression. 320 is the least bad. i think with sufficient volume you could probably hear the difference between wav and 320 too, but i haven't tested this.

auxym 12y ago

I won't dispute the fact that you can distinguish, 160k vs 320k. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm ready to believe people can hear artifacts at 160k even with the best encoders, especially if these people are trained for these artifacts, have a good headphone setup, and are listening to particular problematic passages (higher frequencies, transients, etc). However, just for information, there is a lot more to lossy audio compression than just bitrate. A song encoded with modern LAME with VBR at around 64k or 96k possibly sounds better than the same song encoded with a napster-era encoder at 192 CBR. Modern formats such as AAC or Vorbis are even more performant than LAME. I don't have hard data to back it up, but I think 99% of people would not differentiate between lossless and and lossy with a mid high quality setting (lame at v3-ish, whatever the equivalent is in the best aac encoder these days), even on a great headphone setup. Maybe if they were specifically looking for artifacts in particuliar problem samples.

ploxiln 12y ago

Totally believable. mp3 at 160kbps vs something better, can make a real difference. Headphones and DACs can make a real difference. 96KHz sample rate for playback? Anything which adds extra shielding and filtering on top of a to-spec $20 ethernet cable? Nope, that can't help.