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This sounds about as effective as medical ethics codes: > Listen up, this will be on the test. You need to help patients, not hurt them. You need to be respons

by chroma 12y ago

This sounds about as effective as medical ethics codes: > Listen up, this will be on the test. You need to help patients, not hurt them. You need to be responsible. Try to avoid being irresponsible. Try to act professionally, and to be a positive asset to society. Don't abuse nurses. If someone asks you do to something unethical, tell them you won't. Did I mention you need to help patients, and not hurt them? > If reading that paragraph seemed like a waste of your time, imagine how I feel after attending the three hour lecture version. That's from Against medical ethics[1], an early post by psychologist Scott Alexander, who has since started writing at http://slatestarcodex.com/ http://slatestarcodex.com/ People writing this sort of software either don't think they're causing harm, or they rationalize it. If the writer of malicious or deceptive software doesn't realize they're doing harm, no programming ethics course will help. The same is true if they rationalize their behavior with reasoning like, "If someone is dumb enough to get this spyware, they shouldn't be online." or "If I stopped doing this job, someone else would take my place tomorrow." I'm not sure what the best solution is, but ethics codes seem like a complete waste of time. 1. http://squid314.livejournal.com/285785.html http://squid314.livejournal.com/285785.html

scarmig 12y ago
Doesn't that apply to every ethics code? Treat other people as you would want to be treated. Don't murder or steal. Be respectful and empathetic to others. Yeah, you can say they're trivial platitudes, and anyone can reason themselves out of them on technicalities, but I don't know if the world would be a better place if we just threw them all away. They're norm setting, not legal documents. ETA: Hell, maybe it's best just to think of them as a checklist. Yes, don't do these obvious things W and X, and do do these other obvious things Y and Z. And even if it seems ridiculous that that would appreciably improve behavior, checklists of other things--like washing hands--have been shown to significantly improve policy compliance and outcomes.
- chroma 12y ago
  Yes, it applies to every ethics code. I picked medical ethics because it's typically the most respected, and I had a fun rebuttal to it. Checklists augment human memory, preventing people from forgetting parts of frequent, repetitive tasks. I don't think people forget parts of their ethics often. They might "cheat" a little for impulsive decisions, but that's the extent of it. If you spend weeks applying, interviewing, and accepting a position making malware at a company, it says a lot about you as a person. That's where the vast majority of malware comes from, not otherwise ethical people who sometimes backslide.
  - meowface 12y ago
    Would it maybe be better to show numerous case studies in ethics classes? Instances where some person or team or organization thinks they're doing something good or "not that bad" which ends up having very negative consequences? I think that would drive a stronger message than a silly written code; it could also encourage people to potentially escape groupthink, question decisions, and whistleblow bad behavior when they've exhausted other options. Obviously there are people out there who will never care about making ethical decisions, but I think there are situations where an otherwise ethical person might do something unethical without being aware of it. Malware doesn't count, since obviously no ethical person would do that (excluding arguments about intelligence agencies and warfare...), but a good target audience might be engineers working on software that has the potential to infringe privacy.
    - tjl 12y ago
      The engineering ethics classes I know about basically look at case studies. You get taught various philosophical ethics systems (e.g., utilitarianism) and then examine a situation, a proposed action and whether that action is ethical. If it isn't, suggest a new ethical action instead. You examine the action based on the different ethical systems. Deciding actions based on consequences is utilitarianism, which is only one ethical system. There's a number of other systems. For instance, one could have a set of rules that they follow (e.g., always tell the truth), but that could result in negative consequences.
      - scarmig 12y ago
        Deciding actions based on consequences is consequentialism, not utilitarianism. You can just as easily have an ethical system that says an action is moral if if furthers the interest of the race, or if it saves the planet, or if it furthers your self interest, or whatever. Utilitarianism is simply a form of consequentialism which can be (kinda sorta) reduced to "an action is ethical if it maximizes society's global utility function." Well, except for rule utilitarianism, which on one level is anti-consequentialist (though on other levels it's still deeply consequentialist).
SomeCallMeTim 12y ago
As mentioned in the article, while the engineering ethics code doesn't have force of law, "state boards of registration do consider it when conducting disciplinary investigations." If we had, in addition to an ethics code, a state body that could take people to task for violating it, then it could have teeth. Of course then the unethical programmers would all move to Nevada (or whatever state had the most lax oversight). One step at a time, though. :)
- tjl 12y ago
  In Canada (or at least Ontario), the Code of Ethics is actually part of the Professional Engineers Act [1, section 77]. It's pretty general, though. It isn't quite as specific as this one. You can be disciplined (and possibly lose your license) for violating it. One could argue that spyware violates the "fidelity to public needs". [1] ]http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900941_e.htm http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900...
  - tjradcliffe 12y ago
    This is true in BC as well: https://www.apeg.bc.ca/getmedia/e8d858f5-e175-4536-8834-34a383671c13/APEGBC-Code-of-Ethics.pdf.aspx https://www.apeg.bc.ca/getmedia/e8d858f5-e175-4536-8834-34a3... However, even in Canada the vast majority of software developers are not professional engineers.
    - tjl 12y ago
      It's true. Even many of the engineering grads I know who go on to do software don't bother trying to trying to register as professional engineers. I registered after graduation, but many of my classmates didn't. Now, I keep the registration partly because my life insurance policy is a group one through the association.
JoachimSchipper 12y ago
Medical ethics are nonetheless fairly effective at what they set out to do - because you'll get kicked out of the profession if you do anything too grossly unethical.
- webnrrd2k 12y ago
  I think ethical education is important, and is more of a first step rather than a complete solution. It's probably effective with most well-meaning professionals. But there are obvious conflicts... It's a problem when my health care conflicts with a doctor's profit motive. As an example, pharmaceutical sales is built around getting doctors to do borderline unethical behaviors like over-prescribing or prescribing ineffective medications. Not directly on-topic, I read this about an hour ago... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango, an article about a doctor who was a mass murderer, and was eventually caught after killing something in the range of 30--60 people, and provides an interesting counter-point to the effectiveness of medical ethics. I admit that it's an edge case, the exception rather than the rule, but even ethics training and oversight isn't effective against a bad actor.

by chroma 12y ago

scarmig 12y ago

Doesn't that apply to every ethics code? Treat other people as you would want to be treated. Don't murder or steal. Be respectful and empathetic to others. Yeah, you can say they're trivial platitudes, and anyone can reason themselves out of them on technicalities, but I don't know if the world would be a better place if we just threw them all away. They're norm setting, not legal documents. ETA: Hell, maybe it's best just to think of them as a checklist. Yes, don't do these obvious things W and X, and do do these other obvious things Y and Z. And even if it seems ridiculous that that would appreciably improve behavior, checklists of other things--like washing hands--have been shown to significantly improve policy compliance and outcomes.

chroma 12y ago
Yes, it applies to every ethics code. I picked medical ethics because it's typically the most respected, and I had a fun rebuttal to it. Checklists augment human memory, preventing people from forgetting parts of frequent, repetitive tasks. I don't think people forget parts of their ethics often. They might "cheat" a little for impulsive decisions, but that's the extent of it. If you spend weeks applying, interviewing, and accepting a position making malware at a company, it says a lot about you as a person. That's where the vast majority of malware comes from, not otherwise ethical people who sometimes backslide.
- meowface 12y ago
  Would it maybe be better to show numerous case studies in ethics classes? Instances where some person or team or organization thinks they're doing something good or "not that bad" which ends up having very negative consequences? I think that would drive a stronger message than a silly written code; it could also encourage people to potentially escape groupthink, question decisions, and whistleblow bad behavior when they've exhausted other options. Obviously there are people out there who will never care about making ethical decisions, but I think there are situations where an otherwise ethical person might do something unethical without being aware of it. Malware doesn't count, since obviously no ethical person would do that (excluding arguments about intelligence agencies and warfare...), but a good target audience might be engineers working on software that has the potential to infringe privacy.
  - tjl 12y ago
    The engineering ethics classes I know about basically look at case studies. You get taught various philosophical ethics systems (e.g., utilitarianism) and then examine a situation, a proposed action and whether that action is ethical. If it isn't, suggest a new ethical action instead. You examine the action based on the different ethical systems. Deciding actions based on consequences is utilitarianism, which is only one ethical system. There's a number of other systems. For instance, one could have a set of rules that they follow (e.g., always tell the truth), but that could result in negative consequences.
    - scarmig 12y ago
      Deciding actions based on consequences is consequentialism, not utilitarianism. You can just as easily have an ethical system that says an action is moral if if furthers the interest of the race, or if it saves the planet, or if it furthers your self interest, or whatever. Utilitarianism is simply a form of consequentialism which can be (kinda sorta) reduced to "an action is ethical if it maximizes society's global utility function." Well, except for rule utilitarianism, which on one level is anti-consequentialist (though on other levels it's still deeply consequentialist).

SomeCallMeTim 12y ago

As mentioned in the article, while the engineering ethics code doesn't have force of law, "state boards of registration do consider it when conducting disciplinary investigations." If we had, in addition to an ethics code, a state body that could take people to task for violating it, then it could have teeth. Of course then the unethical programmers would all move to Nevada (or whatever state had the most lax oversight). One step at a time, though. :)

tjl 12y ago
In Canada (or at least Ontario), the Code of Ethics is actually part of the Professional Engineers Act [1, section 77]. It's pretty general, though. It isn't quite as specific as this one. You can be disciplined (and possibly lose your license) for violating it. One could argue that spyware violates the "fidelity to public needs". [1] ]http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900941_e.htm http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900...
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  This is true in BC as well: https://www.apeg.bc.ca/getmedia/e8d858f5-e175-4536-8834-34a383671c13/APEGBC-Code-of-Ethics.pdf.aspx https://www.apeg.bc.ca/getmedia/e8d858f5-e175-4536-8834-34a3... However, even in Canada the vast majority of software developers are not professional engineers.
  - tjl 12y ago
    It's true. Even many of the engineering grads I know who go on to do software don't bother trying to trying to register as professional engineers. I registered after graduation, but many of my classmates didn't. Now, I keep the registration partly because my life insurance policy is a group one through the association.

JoachimSchipper 12y ago

Medical ethics are nonetheless fairly effective at what they set out to do - because you'll get kicked out of the profession if you do anything too grossly unethical.

webnrrd2k 12y ago
I think ethical education is important, and is more of a first step rather than a complete solution. It's probably effective with most well-meaning professionals. But there are obvious conflicts... It's a problem when my health care conflicts with a doctor's profit motive. As an example, pharmaceutical sales is built around getting doctors to do borderline unethical behaviors like over-prescribing or prescribing ineffective medications. Not directly on-topic, I read this about an hour ago... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Swango, an article about a doctor who was a mass murderer, and was eventually caught after killing something in the range of 30--60 people, and provides an interesting counter-point to the effectiveness of medical ethics. I admit that it's an edge case, the exception rather than the rule, but even ethics training and oversight isn't effective against a bad actor.