8 ms·

Type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease reversed in rats

74 points by known 12y ago

untilHellbanned 12y ago
This is like saying I coded a website that looks like Facebook, so therefore it is as valuable as Facebook. This has been cured too many times in too many ways in animals even by myself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21816276 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21816276 We have to move past being impressed by this type of information onto making a REAL Facebook and not just a site that looks like it.
TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
DNP is still somewhat popular with bodybuilders looking to cut weight. It has some very powerful side-effects though, like insomnia, sweating non-stop, and death if you take a few extra mcg than you should have. Ephedrine and caffeine are a lot safer. Most who have done DNP say it is one of the worst experiences of their life. Edit: It also may be mutagenic.
- perardi 12y ago
  Not that I've ever taken it, because that would be illegal and wrong because drugs are bad and wrong, but if I did, it's pretty miserable at 500mg/day for multiple days. It's like suffering through a bad flu. Hot, sweaty, lethargic, gastrointestinal upset…it's unpleasant. The worst thing is the insomnia brought on by the night sweats. I live in a cold, cold Midwestern city, and I was sleeping with the windows open. But, 15 pounds down in 2 weeks. While eating like 2200cal/day.
  - Killah911 12y ago
    How long ago? And have you been able to keep it off?
    - TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
      It's just calories-in-calories-out. You can keep it off if you then eat below your TDEE.
      - CyberDildonics 12y ago
        It isn't that simple. Fructose plays a much different role in lipogenesis than other foods.
        TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
        Then don't eat fructose.
        WillPostForFood 12y ago
        Exactly, it is more complicated than calories-in-calories-out.
        cbd1984 12y ago
        Calories in calories out is physics nothing can override or circumvent. It's a basic plausibility test. Fructose obeys the same laws as everything else. It might be harder to hit a calorie target if you eat fructose but if you do, that's it. It has to work. Anyone who disputes this is scientifically illiterate.
        seekingtruth 12y ago
        > Anyone who disputes this is scientifically illiterate. Well, those who possess a lower IQ are more likely to become obese. So perhaps not understanding the way the universe works is how they wind up obese in the first place. Not too surprising, then, that they would be unable to comprehend how to get themselves out of that state. And there is certainly no shortage of charlatans and mountebanks out there all too ready to lead them astray.
        12y ago
    - perardi 12y ago
      Um, 5 days ago, in preparation for a vacation. Again, theoretically.
      - darkmighty 12y ago
        Any other concerning side effects, if one were to use this? (or, why is it an illegal drug?)
        TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
        The overheating leading to death if you dose it wrong is at the top of the list. The difference between this DNP and the DNP you can buy on the blackmarket is that the DNP used in these modern fatty-liver studies is time released in smaller doses. Users can expect to lose about ~1lb/day. But, it is very hard on you. You want to learn how to lose weight on a caloric deficit and macronutrient partitioning, about 1lb/week, and stick to a diet for at least a year before you even consider this. Otherwise, you don't have the right habits.
- johnward 12y ago
  DNP scares me. I don't think you ever hear much from the guys who take too much because they don't survive.
reasonattlm 12y ago
I has always amazed me how much effort goes into technological attempts to reverse a condition that can be reliably prevented and even reversed in the overwhelming majority of sufferers up until fairly late stages by simply eating less. Eating less is so amazingly unpopular that people would rather suffer and die waiting on therapies than do the one thing already known to work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909 An extreme eight-week diet of 600 calories a day can reverse Type 2 diabetes in people newly diagnosed with the disease. http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/dme.12722 http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/dme.12722 In people with Type 2 diabetes of more than 8 years' duration, a therapeutic trial of a very-low-calorie diet may be undertaken with a 50% chance of achieving non-diabetic fasting glucose levels, with all other antidiabetic therapies discontinued.
- ymra 12y ago
  "More research is needed to see whether the reversal is permanent, say experts." A single small trial isn't something to base medical advice around.
  - niels_olson 12y ago
    Great point. As a matter of fact, parachutes have never had a randomized controlled trial. They should be avoided also.
    - voronoff 12y ago
      Engineering != science || medicine. It can be used in both, and can use science, but that doesn't make it the same thing. P.S. http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/1524537 http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/1524537 is a study on parachute effectiveness
    - ymra 12y ago
      If you want to base your life around the results of single, small scale studies, that's your choice. But I've seen too many studies that seemed impressive, but when people set out to replicate the the study, they failed to get the same results. This is not rare, it happens frequently.
kiba 12y ago
In due time, we will learn to reverse aging, cure cancer, cure diabetes, and do all kind of freaky things with lab rats. Then we will create a new rat species that is biologically immortal, smarter, stronger, and faster than any before. They will escape the NIH and establish their own society.
- johnny22 12y ago
  Reminds of of one of my childhood favorites: book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NIMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NIM... movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH
  - emiliobumachar 12y ago
    Related smbc comic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2881 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2881
- agumonkey 12y ago
  That would be so friggin amazing. Planet of the mice.
fasteo 12y ago
In other forums, I have proposed to use DNP as a treatment for my condition (mitochondrial myopathy) and I am happy to see that there are lines of research looking into this. Using DNP to treat disease is scary with a reason; due to its narrow therapeutic index[1], it is very easy to overdose. However, its mechanism of action is clearly understood[2]: It decouples the electron transport chain, causing a signalling cascade that results in the activation of mitochondrial biogenesis. In this particular case, it is sad to see that we need a pill for everything; in many cases, T2D is easily controlled [3], even reversed, with aerobic exercise (note also that the mitochondrial biogenesis pathway is activated with exercise[4]) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index [2] http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01868062#page-1 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01868062#page-1 [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2773368/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2773368/ [4] http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/6/657.long http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/6/657.long
CyberDildonics 12y ago
It's called stop eating fructose and stop drinking ethanol.
- DanBC 12y ago
  EDIT: I'm not sure I understand the problems with fructose. It gets mentioned a lot on HN. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26868-do-sugary-drinks-trigger-early-puberty-in-girls.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26868-do-sugary-drinks... "Ah, so that's why the study found an association with sugary drinks?" "Possibly. The study found that girls who drink more than 1.5 sugar-sweetened beverages a day started their periods 2.7 months earlier on average than girls who consumed them twice a week or less. The finding didn't apply to fruit juice – which contains a sugar called fructose – only to drinks sweetened with sucrose." "What is the mechanism then?" "That's one of the problems: we simply don't know. Karin Michels at the Harvard T. H. Chan School of Public Health, who supervised the study, says that sucrose in sugary drinks causes a spike in the hormone insulin, which controls blood sugar levels. Over time this may make the body's tissues less sensitive to the hormone, with consequences for metabolism. Quite why this would lower the age of menstruation isn't understood, but a drug called metformin, which makes the body more sensitive to insulin, has been shown to reverse early puberty in clinical trials." They don't find this insulin spike with fructose.
- mikhailt 12y ago
  While the other guy mentioned fructose, I'll mention the ethanol thing. The fatty liver disease mentioned has nothing to do with ethanol, in fact it is called Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease or NAFLD. There are no confirmed causes for it but it varies. In certain population, it's a generic mutation, for some it's from fructose, and so on.
tsotha 12y ago
Damn, rats have a better health plan than I do.
nmerouze 12y ago
A few studies showed caffeine can achieve the same results than DNP. And I know a few people who reversed fatty liver with caffeine alone in just 2 weeks. The only problem is to have enough caffeine tolerance to get to 800mg through the day.
known 12y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramchol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramchol seems promising

74 points by known 12y ago

This is like saying I coded a website that looks like Facebook, so therefore it is as valuable as Facebook. This has been cured too many times in too many ways in animals even by myself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21816276 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21816276 We have to move past being impressed by this type of information onto making a REAL Facebook and not just a site that looks like it.

TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago

DNP is still somewhat popular with bodybuilders looking to cut weight. It has some very powerful side-effects though, like insomnia, sweating non-stop, and death if you take a few extra mcg than you should have. Ephedrine and caffeine are a lot safer. Most who have done DNP say it is one of the worst experiences of their life. Edit: It also may be mutagenic.

perardi 12y ago
Not that I've ever taken it, because that would be illegal and wrong because drugs are bad and wrong, but if I did, it's pretty miserable at 500mg/day for multiple days. It's like suffering through a bad flu. Hot, sweaty, lethargic, gastrointestinal upset…it's unpleasant. The worst thing is the insomnia brought on by the night sweats. I live in a cold, cold Midwestern city, and I was sleeping with the windows open. But, 15 pounds down in 2 weeks. While eating like 2200cal/day.
- Killah911 12y ago
  How long ago? And have you been able to keep it off?
  - TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
    It's just calories-in-calories-out. You can keep it off if you then eat below your TDEE.
    - CyberDildonics 12y ago
      It isn't that simple. Fructose plays a much different role in lipogenesis than other foods.
      - TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
        Then don't eat fructose.
        WillPostForFood 12y ago
        Exactly, it is more complicated than calories-in-calories-out.
        cbd1984 12y ago
        Calories in calories out is physics nothing can override or circumvent. It's a basic plausibility test. Fructose obeys the same laws as everything else. It might be harder to hit a calorie target if you eat fructose but if you do, that's it. It has to work. Anyone who disputes this is scientifically illiterate.
        seekingtruth 12y ago
        > Anyone who disputes this is scientifically illiterate. Well, those who possess a lower IQ are more likely to become obese. So perhaps not understanding the way the universe works is how they wind up obese in the first place. Not too surprising, then, that they would be unable to comprehend how to get themselves out of that state. And there is certainly no shortage of charlatans and mountebanks out there all too ready to lead them astray.
        12y ago
  - perardi 12y ago
    Um, 5 days ago, in preparation for a vacation. Again, theoretically.
    - darkmighty 12y ago
      Any other concerning side effects, if one were to use this? (or, why is it an illegal drug?)
      - TEMPLEOS_DEV 12y ago
        The overheating leading to death if you dose it wrong is at the top of the list. The difference between this DNP and the DNP you can buy on the blackmarket is that the DNP used in these modern fatty-liver studies is time released in smaller doses. Users can expect to lose about ~1lb/day. But, it is very hard on you. You want to learn how to lose weight on a caloric deficit and macronutrient partitioning, about 1lb/week, and stick to a diet for at least a year before you even consider this. Otherwise, you don't have the right habits.
johnward 12y ago
DNP scares me. I don't think you ever hear much from the guys who take too much because they don't survive.

reasonattlm 12y ago

I has always amazed me how much effort goes into technological attempts to reverse a condition that can be reliably prevented and even reversed in the overwhelming majority of sufferers up until fairly late stages by simply eating less. Eating less is so amazingly unpopular that people would rather suffer and die waiting on therapies than do the one thing already known to work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909 An extreme eight-week diet of 600 calories a day can reverse Type 2 diabetes in people newly diagnosed with the disease. http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/dme.12722 http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/dme.12722 In people with Type 2 diabetes of more than 8 years' duration, a therapeutic trial of a very-low-calorie diet may be undertaken with a 50% chance of achieving non-diabetic fasting glucose levels, with all other antidiabetic therapies discontinued.

ymra 12y ago
"More research is needed to see whether the reversal is permanent, say experts." A single small trial isn't something to base medical advice around.
- niels_olson 12y ago
  Great point. As a matter of fact, parachutes have never had a randomized controlled trial. They should be avoided also.
  - voronoff 12y ago
    Engineering != science || medicine. It can be used in both, and can use science, but that doesn't make it the same thing. P.S. http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/1524537 http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/1524537 is a study on parachute effectiveness
  - ymra 12y ago
    If you want to base your life around the results of single, small scale studies, that's your choice. But I've seen too many studies that seemed impressive, but when people set out to replicate the the study, they failed to get the same results. This is not rare, it happens frequently.

kiba 12y ago

In due time, we will learn to reverse aging, cure cancer, cure diabetes, and do all kind of freaky things with lab rats. Then we will create a new rat species that is biologically immortal, smarter, stronger, and faster than any before. They will escape the NIH and establish their own society.

johnny22 12y ago
Reminds of of one of my childhood favorites: book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NIMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NIM... movie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_NIMH
- emiliobumachar 12y ago
  Related smbc comic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2881 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2881
agumonkey 12y ago
That would be so friggin amazing. Planet of the mice.

fasteo 12y ago

In other forums, I have proposed to use DNP as a treatment for my condition (mitochondrial myopathy) and I am happy to see that there are lines of research looking into this. Using DNP to treat disease is scary with a reason; due to its narrow therapeutic index[1], it is very easy to overdose. However, its mechanism of action is clearly understood[2]: It decouples the electron transport chain, causing a signalling cascade that results in the activation of mitochondrial biogenesis. In this particular case, it is sad to see that we need a pill for everything; in many cases, T2D is easily controlled [3], even reversed, with aerobic exercise (note also that the mitochondrial biogenesis pathway is activated with exercise[4]) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index [2] http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01868062#page-1 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01868062#page-1 [3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2773368/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2773368/ [4] http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/6/657.long http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/6/657.long

CyberDildonics 12y ago

It's called stop eating fructose and stop drinking ethanol.

DanBC 12y ago
EDIT: I'm not sure I understand the problems with fructose. It gets mentioned a lot on HN. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26868-do-sugary-drinks-trigger-early-puberty-in-girls.html http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26868-do-sugary-drinks... "Ah, so that's why the study found an association with sugary drinks?" "Possibly. The study found that girls who drink more than 1.5 sugar-sweetened beverages a day started their periods 2.7 months earlier on average than girls who consumed them twice a week or less. The finding didn't apply to fruit juice – which contains a sugar called fructose – only to drinks sweetened with sucrose." "What is the mechanism then?" "That's one of the problems: we simply don't know. Karin Michels at the Harvard T. H. Chan School of Public Health, who supervised the study, says that sucrose in sugary drinks causes a spike in the hormone insulin, which controls blood sugar levels. Over time this may make the body's tissues less sensitive to the hormone, with consequences for metabolism. Quite why this would lower the age of menstruation isn't understood, but a drug called metformin, which makes the body more sensitive to insulin, has been shown to reverse early puberty in clinical trials." They don't find this insulin spike with fructose.
mikhailt 12y ago
While the other guy mentioned fructose, I'll mention the ethanol thing. The fatty liver disease mentioned has nothing to do with ethanol, in fact it is called Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease or NAFLD. There are no confirmed causes for it but it varies. In certain population, it's a generic mutation, for some it's from fructose, and so on.

tsotha 12y ago

Damn, rats have a better health plan than I do.

nmerouze 12y ago

A few studies showed caffeine can achieve the same results than DNP. And I know a few people who reversed fatty liver with caffeine alone in just 2 weeks. The only problem is to have enough caffeine tolerance to get to 800mg through the day.

known 12y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramchol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramchol seems promising