4 ms·

While I agree that programming attracts a lot of people that aren't in it for the love of the craft, I disagree with most of your sentiment. I see a creative p

by jofer 12y ago

While I agree that programming attracts a lot of people that aren't in it for the love of the craft, I disagree with most of your sentiment. I see a creative person who struggles with having to focus on someone else's agenda. Most non-developers see programming as tedious, mind-numbing work that involves zero creativity. Most people who have never worked on a small farm or built a table/shed/house/whatever think of the manual labor as tedious, mind-numbing work that involves zero creativity. Both working on a farm and programming are surprisingly creative professions. I grew up on a farm, and farming requires a love of creating and building and an incredible amount of creativity. ("Big agriculture" is a bit different. I'm referring mostly to single-family operations, though many of those are quite large.) In both, you have to love building things from the ground up. You have to be willing to get your hands dirty and put up with occasional tedium, be it fixing a particularly annoying corner-case or riding a tractor for 12 hours. In both, you have to solve complex problems with limited resources under time pressure. (The things I've seen my grandfather fabricate or fix with random broken junk and an arc welder are simply mind-blowing.) Most farmers I know embody the "hacker culture" more than most self-proclaimed "hackers" I know. I'd argue that going back and forth is less of an extreme than you'd think.

Kurtz79 12y ago
"I see a creative person who struggles with having to focus on someone else's agenda." But if he loved/liked programming and the problem is just not working on something of his liking, nothing prevents him from either finding another more endearing programming job or working on his own thing. I believe the parent spot-on: not everyone is into programming because it is his/her own calling in life, for many people it's just a mean to an end (making a living) which has the benefit of being somewhat more creative and commanding an higher pay than many other jobs. And by all means, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it is clear that the blogger was unhappy with his life (while he was clearly happy when doing something else rather than programming in the past), so it wasn't his thing really, I wish him all the best with his new adventure.
- capisce 12y ago
  > nothing prevents him from either finding another more endearing programming job or working on his own thing. Risk and lack of a safety net prevents people from working on their own thing.
  - jakejake 12y ago
    That is true, but the author definitely took a giant leap to leave the field of programming - twice. Getting another programming job would have been a substantially less risky jump.
- AnonJ 12y ago
  Yeah exactly. The post was quite crude and I can't see a passionate, career-savvy programmer in it. I guess the most important value of the post is to open up our eyes to those colleagues who aren't into the trade with a true love for programming. Their mindset would be something quite hard to comprehend were we using only our own perspectives.
m_coder 12y ago
I have said for a long time that my dad (who was a farmer) taught me to "hack" long before I began programming. The capacity to persist in the face of seemingly impossible situations is very valuable in both fields.
magic_beans 12y ago
Wow... this has the makings of a wonderful essay. :)
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>Both working on a farm and programming are surprisingly creative professions. For all the shit rural culture gets around here, I'm usually impressed by the ingenuity of its homegrown hacker-like culture. I sometimes get frustrated with my overly automated urban life. Apartment/condo living with a low maintenance car/appliances/technology and a worklife where I'm shuttled to and from via public transportation doesn't leave a lot of room for fun little hacks or impromptu solutions. The room that's left is often trivial gimmicks like tying something to tasker or messing around with whatever platform or language is hot right now. Then I bought a fixer-upper house. As frustrating as this can be sometimes, there's just a great rewarding feeling of learning new things, fixing things, adding value to your home, etc. Real life hacking that isn't servos or screens is surprisingly rewarding. A small farm must be this x100.
- br3w5 12y ago
  And just not spending enough time in free outdoor spaces...and I'm not talking about contrived "urban spaces"
- bkjelden 12y ago
  I recently moved from a rural/small city area to a major urban area. One of the most striking differences to me has been how many more abstractions there are for people living in a city - and as a result, how much less those people know about their surroundings.
- klibertp 12y ago
  > there's just a great rewarding feeling of learning new things, fixing things, You don't need to live anywhere special to do this. It's easy. Just fix it if something breaks. Try to make things instead of going out to buy them. It's not even always cheaper to do this, and the effects are certainly less polished than what you can buy (it gets better over time), but the feeling that you did something real is very worthwhile. I'm living in a tiny apartment and I gathered some tools like this: http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=4000 http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=... for working with small pieces of wood, leather, metal and glass. Good tools are very important, you don't want to be fighting with your tool when making something, it's frustrating. I made something like this: http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/2042435968_5/Electronic-Cigarette-Leather-Lanyard-Neck-Sling-colorful-accessory-Ring-Pouch-String-PU-E-cigarette-wholesale-case.jpg http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/2042435968_5/Electronic-C... out of an old leather belt, fixed a few bedside lamps and some flashlights and built a bedside table, among other things. It took me from one week to one month to make them, in contrast to going out and buying them in 30 minutes tops. But I learned many useful skills, and - in some instances - made things much better suited to my tastes than any mass produced equivalent. It's like Linux or Mac OS thing: if you want your computer to just work, go with the latter, but if you want to decide yourself how most of your computer works you need Linux. Needless to say I'm using Linux wherever I can :)
mmphosis 12y ago
I just went to our yearly gathering of local farmers. I know one small acreage farmer who has hacked together an automated irrigation system, and others in the community are building similar systems. Arduino or similar devices controlling larger arrays of irrigation switches and a scheduler (cron) controlled from a simple web interface.
bkjelden 12y ago
Many of the happiest and hardest working people I know are farmers. Autonomy, mastery, purpose - family farmers have all three of those.
jakejake 12y ago
I didn't intend any disrespect to farming. Rather, just for me, I love programming so much more than doing other kinds of work. I have in the past worked in the most corporate programming environments writing insurance processing systems. Even within those parameters there were all kinds of adventures and problems to solve. Perhaps I wasn't in control of the "grand vision" of the company, but I was solving the little problems that pertained to my assignments. I found the possibility for immense creativity even in these supposedly mundane programming tasks. I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything but I feel like programmers who truly, truly love it - it's almost irrelevant what project they are working on.
- mercer 12y ago
  >I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything but I feel like programmers who truly, truly love it - it's almost irrelevant what project they are working on. I think that's only partly true. I absolute love programming, and as a result, yes, I have been able to find enjoyment in even the most pointless projects. And yet, over time, that's not enough for me. For some reason I just cannot help but feel worse and worse eventually when I get the impression that my work has no 'higher' purpose (by whatever definition of 'higher' I employ). Perhaps this is because I grew up with parents and in environments that were very idealism-driven. Perhaps it's personality. I'm not sure. But with any 'pointless' work I always reach a point where I can fully enjoy much of my day, but I feel drained and a bit depressed at the end of it. I could see how a programmer who truly loves programming, and nothing else, might feel the way you describe though.

by jofer 12y ago

Kurtz79 12y ago

"I see a creative person who struggles with having to focus on someone else's agenda." But if he loved/liked programming and the problem is just not working on something of his liking, nothing prevents him from either finding another more endearing programming job or working on his own thing. I believe the parent spot-on: not everyone is into programming because it is his/her own calling in life, for many people it's just a mean to an end (making a living) which has the benefit of being somewhat more creative and commanding an higher pay than many other jobs. And by all means, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it is clear that the blogger was unhappy with his life (while he was clearly happy when doing something else rather than programming in the past), so it wasn't his thing really, I wish him all the best with his new adventure.

capisce 12y ago
> nothing prevents him from either finding another more endearing programming job or working on his own thing. Risk and lack of a safety net prevents people from working on their own thing.
- jakejake 12y ago
  That is true, but the author definitely took a giant leap to leave the field of programming - twice. Getting another programming job would have been a substantially less risky jump.
AnonJ 12y ago
Yeah exactly. The post was quite crude and I can't see a passionate, career-savvy programmer in it. I guess the most important value of the post is to open up our eyes to those colleagues who aren't into the trade with a true love for programming. Their mindset would be something quite hard to comprehend were we using only our own perspectives.

m_coder 12y ago

I have said for a long time that my dad (who was a farmer) taught me to "hack" long before I began programming. The capacity to persist in the face of seemingly impossible situations is very valuable in both fields.

magic_beans 12y ago

Wow... this has the makings of a wonderful essay. :)

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

>Both working on a farm and programming are surprisingly creative professions. For all the shit rural culture gets around here, I'm usually impressed by the ingenuity of its homegrown hacker-like culture. I sometimes get frustrated with my overly automated urban life. Apartment/condo living with a low maintenance car/appliances/technology and a worklife where I'm shuttled to and from via public transportation doesn't leave a lot of room for fun little hacks or impromptu solutions. The room that's left is often trivial gimmicks like tying something to tasker or messing around with whatever platform or language is hot right now. Then I bought a fixer-upper house. As frustrating as this can be sometimes, there's just a great rewarding feeling of learning new things, fixing things, adding value to your home, etc. Real life hacking that isn't servos or screens is surprisingly rewarding. A small farm must be this x100.

br3w5 12y ago
And just not spending enough time in free outdoor spaces...and I'm not talking about contrived "urban spaces"
bkjelden 12y ago
I recently moved from a rural/small city area to a major urban area. One of the most striking differences to me has been how many more abstractions there are for people living in a city - and as a result, how much less those people know about their surroundings.
klibertp 12y ago
> there's just a great rewarding feeling of learning new things, fixing things, You don't need to live anywhere special to do this. It's easy. Just fix it if something breaks. Try to make things instead of going out to buy them. It's not even always cheaper to do this, and the effects are certainly less polished than what you can buy (it gets better over time), but the feeling that you did something real is very worthwhile. I'm living in a tiny apartment and I gathered some tools like this: http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=4000 http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=... for working with small pieces of wood, leather, metal and glass. Good tools are very important, you don't want to be fighting with your tool when making something, it's frustrating. I made something like this: http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/2042435968_5/Electronic-Cigarette-Leather-Lanyard-Neck-Sling-colorful-accessory-Ring-Pouch-String-PU-E-cigarette-wholesale-case.jpg http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/2042435968_5/Electronic-C... out of an old leather belt, fixed a few bedside lamps and some flashlights and built a bedside table, among other things. It took me from one week to one month to make them, in contrast to going out and buying them in 30 minutes tops. But I learned many useful skills, and - in some instances - made things much better suited to my tastes than any mass produced equivalent. It's like Linux or Mac OS thing: if you want your computer to just work, go with the latter, but if you want to decide yourself how most of your computer works you need Linux. Needless to say I'm using Linux wherever I can :)

mmphosis 12y ago

I just went to our yearly gathering of local farmers. I know one small acreage farmer who has hacked together an automated irrigation system, and others in the community are building similar systems. Arduino or similar devices controlling larger arrays of irrigation switches and a scheduler (cron) controlled from a simple web interface.

bkjelden 12y ago

Many of the happiest and hardest working people I know are farmers. Autonomy, mastery, purpose - family farmers have all three of those.

jakejake 12y ago

I didn't intend any disrespect to farming. Rather, just for me, I love programming so much more than doing other kinds of work. I have in the past worked in the most corporate programming environments writing insurance processing systems. Even within those parameters there were all kinds of adventures and problems to solve. Perhaps I wasn't in control of the "grand vision" of the company, but I was solving the little problems that pertained to my assignments. I found the possibility for immense creativity even in these supposedly mundane programming tasks. I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything but I feel like programmers who truly, truly love it - it's almost irrelevant what project they are working on.

mercer 12y ago
>I don't say this to blow my own horn or anything but I feel like programmers who truly, truly love it - it's almost irrelevant what project they are working on. I think that's only partly true. I absolute love programming, and as a result, yes, I have been able to find enjoyment in even the most pointless projects. And yet, over time, that's not enough for me. For some reason I just cannot help but feel worse and worse eventually when I get the impression that my work has no 'higher' purpose (by whatever definition of 'higher' I employ). Perhaps this is because I grew up with parents and in environments that were very idealism-driven. Perhaps it's personality. I'm not sure. But with any 'pointless' work I always reach a point where I can fully enjoy much of my day, but I feel drained and a bit depressed at the end of it. I could see how a programmer who truly loves programming, and nothing else, might feel the way you describe though.