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Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he ratt

Just to clarify, I did not "discuss" potential issues with hiding a kickback. When I mentioned that his employer may not allow his "consulting" with us, he rattled off a bunch of ways he could hide it and I responded by asking him to check the legality of it. To any sane person the message that I did not want to do this would have been obvious. The fact that he ignored it tells me that he thought he could bulldoze me into paying him (because he does not seem dumb). What I precisely told him, and I was careful about this, was that he should investigate the legality of doing this and I would discuss the same with my by the book partner. I wasn't clear about his in the original text, but my survival instincts did kick in and I remember telling him this precisely. Further thinking has left me wondering how he would have responded to a simple "Sorry buddy, don't take it personally but we can't do that. How's the steak?". It may have been the better thing to do. But if he had continued bulldozing it would have ended up in a similar place. As an aside, I have never paid even for a coffee for a government employee who is a potential customer. It is not that I do not know the rules. I just wish I had been more familiar with the playground and had thought about what I would do in a situation like this beforehand. Hopefully this will serve as an opportunity to do that for other entrepreneurs who read this.

lucifer 17y ago
You have my sincere sympathies (and I have no clue what I would have done in your shoes; its one of those moments where clarity arrives in hindsight and self-kicking ensues and we've all been there) but you entered the spider's web as soon as you met with him outside of his office. He knew exactly what he was doing; you didn't. Live and learn. But lets be honest here: "Please check the legality of your proposed hiding of your proposal for our paying you to be our secret consultant and meanwhile I'll run this by my by the book partner"? (And I'm just a (sympathetic) fellow geek on HN; I'm trying to make a point regarding careless escalation of this matter beyond anonymous posts on HN ...) It is imperative that you consult a lawyer regarding this matter even if you and your partner's intent is to simply drop the sale cold, walk away, and cut your loses; call the FBI; go on Oprah; whatever. Get legal advice and mum's the word until you do.
- puppetaccount 17y ago
  Will do. I will say that I am not proud of my rather meek response and that guilt is a large part of why I posted here. Thanks for your advice.
jonny_noog 17y ago
It sounds like you did the best you could after being hit with a pretty big curve ball. Had this happened to me, I think I would have approached it by saying something to the effect of "Look buddy, we're a small outfit, we couldn't really do things this way even if we wanted to. How you usually manage your affairs is none of my business, but I think it would be best for us both if we just forget this conversation ever happened." End of story. So still a firm "no" but also indicating that I'm not interested in making trouble and just wish to be left alone. In this kind of situation, sure there's the question of the greater good not being addressed (i.e. he can go on being corrupt), but sorry, the good of me and mine comes first. There will be corrupt people around for as long as there are people around. But if I were to find myself in the position you're in now where it seems the guy still may harbour some ambitions that he may still have an in with you, on the one hand I wouldn't really want to keep interacting with this guy because the more I would it kind of feels like it could be construed later on as some form of collusion. But at the same time I would be very careful about exposing him before getting legal advice, because who knows if this guy might go all vindictive and try to take you down with him. From what you've said, it seems like it would be yours and your partner's word against his, two witnesses on your side is better than one I guess, but these "his word against yours" kind of things seem to have a way of sometimes getting very messy if they ever hit a court room. I'd be looking to avoid that possibility. Get some senior legal advice ASAP! Fuck the greater good, do what's best for you and your partner! Good luck with it! P.S. I do also think though that there's a difference between supplying a bribe and buying a client a coffee or something. The latter and things like it can be part of building a relationship and there's nothing wrong with that. You just need to make sure that this kind of thing stays at a certain reasonable level.

lucifer 17y ago

You have my sincere sympathies (and I have no clue what I would have done in your shoes; its one of those moments where clarity arrives in hindsight and self-kicking ensues and we've all been there) but you entered the spider's web as soon as you met with him outside of his office. He knew exactly what he was doing; you didn't. Live and learn. But lets be honest here: "Please check the legality of your proposed hiding of your proposal for our paying you to be our secret consultant and meanwhile I'll run this by my by the book partner"? (And I'm just a (sympathetic) fellow geek on HN; I'm trying to make a point regarding careless escalation of this matter beyond anonymous posts on HN ...) It is imperative that you consult a lawyer regarding this matter even if you and your partner's intent is to simply drop the sale cold, walk away, and cut your loses; call the FBI; go on Oprah; whatever. Get legal advice and mum's the word until you do.

puppetaccount 17y ago
Will do. I will say that I am not proud of my rather meek response and that guilt is a large part of why I posted here. Thanks for your advice.

jonny_noog 17y ago

It sounds like you did the best you could after being hit with a pretty big curve ball. Had this happened to me, I think I would have approached it by saying something to the effect of "Look buddy, we're a small outfit, we couldn't really do things this way even if we wanted to. How you usually manage your affairs is none of my business, but I think it would be best for us both if we just forget this conversation ever happened." End of story. So still a firm "no" but also indicating that I'm not interested in making trouble and just wish to be left alone. In this kind of situation, sure there's the question of the greater good not being addressed (i.e. he can go on being corrupt), but sorry, the good of me and mine comes first. There will be corrupt people around for as long as there are people around. But if I were to find myself in the position you're in now where it seems the guy still may harbour some ambitions that he may still have an in with you, on the one hand I wouldn't really want to keep interacting with this guy because the more I would it kind of feels like it could be construed later on as some form of collusion. But at the same time I would be very careful about exposing him before getting legal advice, because who knows if this guy might go all vindictive and try to take you down with him. From what you've said, it seems like it would be yours and your partner's word against his, two witnesses on your side is better than one I guess, but these "his word against yours" kind of things seem to have a way of sometimes getting very messy if they ever hit a court room. I'd be looking to avoid that possibility. Get some senior legal advice ASAP! Fuck the greater good, do what's best for you and your partner! Good luck with it! P.S. I do also think though that there's a difference between supplying a bribe and buying a client a coffee or something. The latter and things like it can be part of building a relationship and there's nothing wrong with that. You just need to make sure that this kind of thing stays at a certain reasonable level.