6 ms·

I think it is very surprising even given findings about corvid intelligence. I know of studies showing crows can count, but that kind of intelligence does not

I think it is very surprising even given findings about corvid intelligence. I know of studies showing crows can count, but that kind of intelligence does not at all imply that a creature will spontaneously give gifts in exchange for food. This requires either some kind of ethics including reciprocity, or it requires that the crows reason that giving gifts will make someone more likely to give more food. The latter reasoning requires that the crows are able to model the behavior of an intelligent agent under hypothetical circumstances. Bird brains are very different from mammal brains; they don't have a neocortex. So it's very interesting that they have developed similar gift-giving behavior to mammals and primates.

gadders 12y ago
I think a lot of our intelligence research is mammal-biassed. When we think of intelligent animals we think primates, dolphins, dogs and maybe pigs. We ignore birds and octopus.
- pidg 12y ago
  Side-note: octopuses enjoy a position as the only invertebrate protected by animal testing laws in the UK (as of 1993): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2103/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2103/made
- marincounty 12y ago
  I have a weird feeling most animals think a lot; it's not just instinct, or Behaviorism. I also have a weird feeling as humans we attribute too much of our actions to thinking, and not enough to instinct and Behaviorism? I still have huge issues with strict Behaviorists though. My Psychiatrist practices subtle reinforcement techniques, and they never worked, but I just can't tell him; he's a nice guy. I think he needs to validate his fees, in order to keep his own sanity? Can I prove it--no! I just never bought those philosophy/psychology instructors who really tried to teach me animals don't think. The older I get the more humans look like apes. I think my decline in testosterone is playing a part in the way I look at the world? The mystery of it all is fading--sadly--in humans and humanity. But the animal world is more fascinating than ever! I am happily waiting for the first mammal to speak it's mind! I wish I could be around when it happens.
  - MollyR 12y ago
    I've thought about this as well. A lot of the things I do don't really seem to be thought or thinking but instinct, with rationalization later. Lately I've been wondering if people think or animals actually "think". Perhaps everything we do extends from some kind of simple instinct in the case of insects to an extremely advanced form of instinct humans, primates, corvids, etc.
  - Oyeboten 12y ago
    I have never seen anything to suggest that the 'inner world' of a member of some other Species, would be any smaller than or less varied and interesting, than my own. Humans tend to be occupied in neurosis, and subterfuge, more than anything else. While other species are largely occupied with 'Nous'...and thus, would be far more elegant in their mental process and decision making and overall ontological 'poise', than people generally are.
Lewton 12y ago
Crow flies with thing in its beak. Sees food, drops thing, grabs food. Comes back later, sees more food! Assumes food came from dropping thing (See "Superstition in the pigeon" [0]). Meme spreads among the crows. No ethics or deep reasoning required. Random rewards lead to irrational behavior. [0] http://psychclassics.asu.edu/Skinner/Pigeon/ http://psychclassics.asu.edu/Skinner/Pigeon/
- dragontamer 12y ago
  The final example though, where a Crow returns the camera-lens cap to the family requires some pretty advanced thinking. We know that Crows recognize human faces and expressions, and communicate these facts amongst each other. Crows / Ravens are the only creature aside from Humans who perform meta-tool use. They can use tools to grab tools to accomplish a goal. In many ways, they're smarter than (non-human) primates, and are probably the 2nd smartest animals on earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_crow#Meta-tool_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_crow#Meta-tool_... Birds in general are pretty smart (see Pidgeons, Parrots, etc. etc.) However crows / ravens are on a completely different intelligence level. Crows break nuts by dropping them on the asphalt... timing their drops during red lights so that traffic doesn't hit them. Besides, gift-giving is seen in far dumber animals than crows. Dogs, Cats, Penguins... they don't have the intelligence of Crows but they understand gifts and social situations.
  - Lewton 12y ago
    It sounds like there's a pretty big amount of crows that got in on the "drop gifts for food" program. And a camera lens is well within the range of what a crow would usually be interested in. It doesn't sound unlikely to me that it would just pick it up as any other thing and gift it. Crows are awesome though, I'm not trying to put down their intelligence, haha. I just wanted to point out that neither deeper reasoning nor ethics is required to explain this phenomenon. One of the researchers in the article said that he had never experienced the gift giving, even though he also fed crows often. That to me makes it more sensible to believe that it's just a meme that developed by chance
protonfish 12y ago
Reciprocity is possibly the simplest form of cooperation. All that would be required is the ability to distinguish between individuals and this type of social behavior could appear through simple Pavlovian conditioning.

gadders 12y ago

I think a lot of our intelligence research is mammal-biassed. When we think of intelligent animals we think primates, dolphins, dogs and maybe pigs. We ignore birds and octopus.

pidg 12y ago
Side-note: octopuses enjoy a position as the only invertebrate protected by animal testing laws in the UK (as of 1993): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2103/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2103/made
marincounty 12y ago
I have a weird feeling most animals think a lot; it's not just instinct, or Behaviorism. I also have a weird feeling as humans we attribute too much of our actions to thinking, and not enough to instinct and Behaviorism? I still have huge issues with strict Behaviorists though. My Psychiatrist practices subtle reinforcement techniques, and they never worked, but I just can't tell him; he's a nice guy. I think he needs to validate his fees, in order to keep his own sanity? Can I prove it--no! I just never bought those philosophy/psychology instructors who really tried to teach me animals don't think. The older I get the more humans look like apes. I think my decline in testosterone is playing a part in the way I look at the world? The mystery of it all is fading--sadly--in humans and humanity. But the animal world is more fascinating than ever! I am happily waiting for the first mammal to speak it's mind! I wish I could be around when it happens.
- MollyR 12y ago
  I've thought about this as well. A lot of the things I do don't really seem to be thought or thinking but instinct, with rationalization later. Lately I've been wondering if people think or animals actually "think". Perhaps everything we do extends from some kind of simple instinct in the case of insects to an extremely advanced form of instinct humans, primates, corvids, etc.
- Oyeboten 12y ago
  I have never seen anything to suggest that the 'inner world' of a member of some other Species, would be any smaller than or less varied and interesting, than my own. Humans tend to be occupied in neurosis, and subterfuge, more than anything else. While other species are largely occupied with 'Nous'...and thus, would be far more elegant in their mental process and decision making and overall ontological 'poise', than people generally are.

Lewton 12y ago

Crow flies with thing in its beak. Sees food, drops thing, grabs food. Comes back later, sees more food! Assumes food came from dropping thing (See "Superstition in the pigeon" [0]). Meme spreads among the crows. No ethics or deep reasoning required. Random rewards lead to irrational behavior. [0] http://psychclassics.asu.edu/Skinner/Pigeon/ http://psychclassics.asu.edu/Skinner/Pigeon/

dragontamer 12y ago
The final example though, where a Crow returns the camera-lens cap to the family requires some pretty advanced thinking. We know that Crows recognize human faces and expressions, and communicate these facts amongst each other. Crows / Ravens are the only creature aside from Humans who perform meta-tool use. They can use tools to grab tools to accomplish a goal. In many ways, they're smarter than (non-human) primates, and are probably the 2nd smartest animals on earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_crow#Meta-tool_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_crow#Meta-tool_... Birds in general are pretty smart (see Pidgeons, Parrots, etc. etc.) However crows / ravens are on a completely different intelligence level. Crows break nuts by dropping them on the asphalt... timing their drops during red lights so that traffic doesn't hit them. Besides, gift-giving is seen in far dumber animals than crows. Dogs, Cats, Penguins... they don't have the intelligence of Crows but they understand gifts and social situations.
- Lewton 12y ago
  It sounds like there's a pretty big amount of crows that got in on the "drop gifts for food" program. And a camera lens is well within the range of what a crow would usually be interested in. It doesn't sound unlikely to me that it would just pick it up as any other thing and gift it. Crows are awesome though, I'm not trying to put down their intelligence, haha. I just wanted to point out that neither deeper reasoning nor ethics is required to explain this phenomenon. One of the researchers in the article said that he had never experienced the gift giving, even though he also fed crows often. That to me makes it more sensible to believe that it's just a meme that developed by chance

protonfish 12y ago

Reciprocity is possibly the simplest form of cooperation. All that would be required is the ability to distinguish between individuals and this type of social behavior could appear through simple Pavlovian conditioning.