6 ms·

Just off the top of my head, World of Warcraft gold farmers. This has been a thing for a LONG TIME.

wpietri 12y ago
Is you argument really that if there is something that "has been a thing for a LONG TIME" that it isn't problematic and that we shouldn't be concerned about avoiding it?
- VikingCoder 12y ago
  I'm seeking to improve the argument. Pretending that THIS is something new is a bad argument. If you want to assail the general category of what you consider to be demeaning jobs, then go for it.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    No, you're doing far more than seeking to improve somebody else's argument. You're making your own argument, while pretending not to. This is clearly an argument: "Just don't take that job. Problem solved. Sheesh." It's not even a very good argument, in that you're just demonstrating the willful ignorance the previous poster was pointing out.
    - VikingCoder 12y ago
      Hilarious. I think it's good for an economy to offer jobs, even ones you find demeaning. People are free to not take those jobs. If enough people don't take that job, then they'll have to either offer more money for the job, or they'll have to find a new way to do the job. I believe in markets. I believe in minimum wages as well, but those are not mutually exclusive concepts. You dismiss this entire line of reasoning as "willful ignorance," rather than ACTUALLY RESPONDING TO IT AND TELLING ME WHY YOU DISAGREE. Sorry, but that's just arrogant and rude. I had a completely different problem with kefka, which was that they said "Great idea." As though this concept of turkification were something new. It's not something new. Therefore, objecting to THIS idea on the basis of it "being a new idea" is a bad argument. If you want to reject the entire category of turk jobs, that's ANOTHER DISCUSSION. See? Two different arguments. So don't conflate them, okay?
      - wpietri 12y ago
        I understand that you have a faith in markets; free-market fundamentalism is depressingly common on HN. This points out a problem, which is that we are not acting with sufficient empathy toward the people who are doing the work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108579 Here you shallowly dismiss that the problem is a problem at all: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108684 That's the willful ignorance I'm talking about. It is not my job to solve your ignorance here, but suffice to say that I don't think the markets-solve-everything hypothesis stands up when you look at historical problems with labor issues over, say, the last century. Markets are fine tools when we set out to solve a particular problem, but they have been poor masters.
        kefka 12y ago
        Precisely. Markets (and capitalism) are great tools. They should not be seen as the end-all-be-all. Same with socialism, communism, as well as other socioeconomic -isms. The failing of the markets is the lack of empathy for the fellow human. We know from the way the US looks how capitalism fails. Poor people are disempowered and marginalized from the system, because little money = little power over self. There is also a downward push to bring everyone into poverty. The current gig economy and using mTurk are both ways to make previous corporate internalites to the public as externalities, whilst privatizing profit. Along with that, they also rely on having none of the protections of an employee, yet with all the requirements of one. It conveniently gets rid of the reforms we fought for in the '30s. Are there solutions to the marginalization of the workforce, along with poverty working class? Yes. 1. Minimum income. Everybody gets it, regardless of a means test. This could be built up by the local level or state, where fees and fines and such could start the basis of a minimum income, even if it's $20/mo. Start small, look big. 2. Change laws to encourage worker cooperatives. Worker cooperatives, like Mondragon, have shown that they care for the fellow worker, because they all own the company as well as manage the company. It would also fit inside our current idea of ownership and contracts. The goal here is to enable political decisions to make company creation in this route easier. Thus the 3'rd... 3. Change unemployment law that allows you and 9 of your unemployed friends who want to start a cooperative to cash out of rest of unemployment to start a business: a worker cooperative. This has been a law in Italy since '85, and is greatly successful. And given how small businesses are celebrated, this should be a great law to pass regardless party.
kefka 12y ago
Yes, informal 'working for gold' has happened in quite a few MMOs where the grind is required to play. However, many MMOs (Eve excluded) usually ban or restrict selling gold for USD. mTurk and the up coming gig economy are legal ways to extract money right now, as a IT1099

Is you argument really that if there is something that "has been a thing for a LONG TIME" that it isn't problematic and that we shouldn't be concerned about avoiding it?

VikingCoder 12y ago
I'm seeking to improve the argument. Pretending that THIS is something new is a bad argument. If you want to assail the general category of what you consider to be demeaning jobs, then go for it.
- wpietri 12y ago
  No, you're doing far more than seeking to improve somebody else's argument. You're making your own argument, while pretending not to. This is clearly an argument: "Just don't take that job. Problem solved. Sheesh." It's not even a very good argument, in that you're just demonstrating the willful ignorance the previous poster was pointing out.
  - VikingCoder 12y ago
    Hilarious. I think it's good for an economy to offer jobs, even ones you find demeaning. People are free to not take those jobs. If enough people don't take that job, then they'll have to either offer more money for the job, or they'll have to find a new way to do the job. I believe in markets. I believe in minimum wages as well, but those are not mutually exclusive concepts. You dismiss this entire line of reasoning as "willful ignorance," rather than ACTUALLY RESPONDING TO IT AND TELLING ME WHY YOU DISAGREE. Sorry, but that's just arrogant and rude. I had a completely different problem with kefka, which was that they said "Great idea." As though this concept of turkification were something new. It's not something new. Therefore, objecting to THIS idea on the basis of it "being a new idea" is a bad argument. If you want to reject the entire category of turk jobs, that's ANOTHER DISCUSSION. See? Two different arguments. So don't conflate them, okay?
    - wpietri 12y ago
      I understand that you have a faith in markets; free-market fundamentalism is depressingly common on HN. This points out a problem, which is that we are not acting with sufficient empathy toward the people who are doing the work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108579 Here you shallowly dismiss that the problem is a problem at all: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9108684 That's the willful ignorance I'm talking about. It is not my job to solve your ignorance here, but suffice to say that I don't think the markets-solve-everything hypothesis stands up when you look at historical problems with labor issues over, say, the last century. Markets are fine tools when we set out to solve a particular problem, but they have been poor masters.
      - kefka 12y ago
        Precisely. Markets (and capitalism) are great tools. They should not be seen as the end-all-be-all. Same with socialism, communism, as well as other socioeconomic -isms. The failing of the markets is the lack of empathy for the fellow human. We know from the way the US looks how capitalism fails. Poor people are disempowered and marginalized from the system, because little money = little power over self. There is also a downward push to bring everyone into poverty. The current gig economy and using mTurk are both ways to make previous corporate internalites to the public as externalities, whilst privatizing profit. Along with that, they also rely on having none of the protections of an employee, yet with all the requirements of one. It conveniently gets rid of the reforms we fought for in the '30s. Are there solutions to the marginalization of the workforce, along with poverty working class? Yes. 1. Minimum income. Everybody gets it, regardless of a means test. This could be built up by the local level or state, where fees and fines and such could start the basis of a minimum income, even if it's $20/mo. Start small, look big. 2. Change laws to encourage worker cooperatives. Worker cooperatives, like Mondragon, have shown that they care for the fellow worker, because they all own the company as well as manage the company. It would also fit inside our current idea of ownership and contracts. The goal here is to enable political decisions to make company creation in this route easier. Thus the 3'rd... 3. Change unemployment law that allows you and 9 of your unemployed friends who want to start a cooperative to cash out of rest of unemployment to start a business: a worker cooperative. This has been a law in Italy since '85, and is greatly successful. And given how small businesses are celebrated, this should be a great law to pass regardless party.

kefka 12y ago

Yes, informal 'working for gold' has happened in quite a few MMOs where the grind is required to play. However, many MMOs (Eve excluded) usually ban or restrict selling gold for USD. mTurk and the up coming gig economy are legal ways to extract money right now, as a IT1099