4 ms·

Have you really? Seriously, though, it's really easy, as a member of the dominant group (male, white, able-bodied, you name it) to try to stand up for a minori

by lkbm 12y ago

Have you really? Seriously, though, it's really easy, as a member of the dominant group (male, white, able-bodied, you name it) to try to stand up for a minority group in a way that seems really helpful from our own perspective, but is actually really hurtful, dis-empowering, or otherwise messed up from the perspective of the people actually living the issue. If you're finding it frustrating trying to put in your two cents, then there's no harm in just listening for a while. Sometimes it's important to speak out against really egregious stuff, but if you're not confident you're doing it "right", often it's better to let someone else take the reigns--someone living on the disadvantaged side. It's frustrating to have to do, but sometimes that's best. However, it's important to remember that when we screw up, that's NOT the fault of the minority group. Yes, they're the ones calling us out when we're trying to help, but if our response is to dismiss their concerns, then there's a good chance we ARE speaking from our own perspective, rather than promoting theirs. But, yes, you can "win" in these conversations. It sounds like you're dismissing them as totally unreasonable because they didn't always agree with your perspective. Could be they're just crazy, emotional women--shrill, bossy ones, no doubt. More likely you screwed up. A lot. That's what people do. Just don't abandon the idea of supporting minorities because the way you wanted to help wasn't they wanted you to help. If it's any comfort, every feminist who got mad at you for saying something wrong has also said something wrong to a disabled person, a person of color, someone from a minority religion, someone from a different economic class....we all screw up. Ideally people will be nice when we do, but even if they're jerks, they deserve equality. We don't punish all white men when one is a jerk.

Chronic31 12y ago
You realize there are literally tens of thousands of people just like the poster you're responding to. Including me.
- lkbm 12y ago
  Yes. As I said, we all screw up, and we all come at things from our own perspective. As members of the dominant group, we have the luxury of not having to see others' perspectives. Any movement dependent on legitimizing minority perspectives has an uphill battle in that regard. People who care will provide solutions from their perspective and feel alienated when they're told they're participating in the marginalization of minority perspectives. Minorities don't need my solutions. They need my support for their solutions.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Minorities don't need my solutions. They need my support for their solutions. This is a common but, IMO -- speaking as a member of a minority on one important axis and a non-minority on other important axes -- misguided view. As a developer, I wouldn't say "business users don't need my solutions, they need my support for their solutions" -- though I might say "business users need me to be attentive to their interests and needs in proposing solutions". Similarly, minorities don't need blind adherence to their demands from the majority any more than vice versa -- certainly, people who are outside of a particular minority can often have important and useful perspective on solutions to the problems faced by minorities. But a key part of that is really paying attention to the interests of people in the group at issue. Who, usually, aren't going to be monolithic, and some of whom are going to disagree with any solution, whether its proposed by a fellow member of the minority or not. And, yes, they'll often bring lack of minority status into it if the person they disagree with is outside of the minority (but then, they'll often bring betrayal language into it if the person is a member of the minority -- that's not because either is a valid critique, its because both are convenient emotional attack vectors.)
    - lkbm 12y ago
      I guess it's not right to say our solutions aren't needed. It's just that our voice and the sorts of solutions we'll tend to come up with are not underrepresented. Far too often our solutions are "be more white", "stop being poor", and the like: "Abandon your perspective and become a member of the dominant group." We need solutions that acknowledge minority experiences and treat them as valuable, not solutions that simply impose majority viewpoints.
JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Thanks for those words in my mouth. Yes, I regard all women as shrill and bossy, and dismiss them and punish them. I'm a bad guy, and that's why I give up trying to be helpful. It couldn't be that I have reasonable notions, take a balanced view, and help where I can. And get beat up for using the wrong pronoun or whatever.
- lkbm 12y ago
  So use the right pronouns next time. It takes time to get it right. Dismissing it because you're not welcomed unquestioningly as the savior indicates that you're not. As I said, sure, we should be try to be nice, but being mean does not delegitimize the movement.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    How many times do you get kicked in the groin before you don't go there again? That's the point I guess I'm failing to make. There's a lot of emotion riding on this issue; if you're a guy, somebody's going to try to make you look bad. Never mind what good you might have been doing; Especially if you're getting some traction, you get torn apart. Because there's points to be scored.
    - lkbm 12y ago
      I'm a guy. I get called out on it when I get stuff wrong, but that's about it. I'll accept that there people who will attack any male voice just because they're sick of hearing them, but they're certainly not the majority in any conversation I've been a part of, especially on HackerNews.
amagumori 12y ago
"even if they're jerks?" the social-justice-on-social-media movement is a platform to publicly stone people who step out of line, not a vehicle for change. you fuck up and say something "problematic" or "harmful" on twitter just once and as soon as it's mentioned by a social justice person, everyone will try to destroy you because you're now "the enemy". if you're a white male the best thing you can do is shut the fuck up and watch because you are literally only in the movement to get ripped apart. none of these people have any respect for you in the first place. the currency of the social justice movement is being institutionally oppressed. more oppression directly gives you more authority. you have none. moreover, the fundamental currency of human self-esteem is in overcoming adversity. but as a white male, you will never be allowed to have a struggle. and if your struggle is denied, then your humanity is denied. you're here to play the role of the oppressor and the privileged. don't think you're a "fellow member" of the social justice movement. everyone already hates you.

by lkbm 12y ago

Chronic31 12y ago

You realize there are literally tens of thousands of people just like the poster you're responding to. Including me.

lkbm 12y ago
Yes. As I said, we all screw up, and we all come at things from our own perspective. As members of the dominant group, we have the luxury of not having to see others' perspectives. Any movement dependent on legitimizing minority perspectives has an uphill battle in that regard. People who care will provide solutions from their perspective and feel alienated when they're told they're participating in the marginalization of minority perspectives. Minorities don't need my solutions. They need my support for their solutions.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Minorities don't need my solutions. They need my support for their solutions. This is a common but, IMO -- speaking as a member of a minority on one important axis and a non-minority on other important axes -- misguided view. As a developer, I wouldn't say "business users don't need my solutions, they need my support for their solutions" -- though I might say "business users need me to be attentive to their interests and needs in proposing solutions". Similarly, minorities don't need blind adherence to their demands from the majority any more than vice versa -- certainly, people who are outside of a particular minority can often have important and useful perspective on solutions to the problems faced by minorities. But a key part of that is really paying attention to the interests of people in the group at issue. Who, usually, aren't going to be monolithic, and some of whom are going to disagree with any solution, whether its proposed by a fellow member of the minority or not. And, yes, they'll often bring lack of minority status into it if the person they disagree with is outside of the minority (but then, they'll often bring betrayal language into it if the person is a member of the minority -- that's not because either is a valid critique, its because both are convenient emotional attack vectors.)
  - lkbm 12y ago
    I guess it's not right to say our solutions aren't needed. It's just that our voice and the sorts of solutions we'll tend to come up with are not underrepresented. Far too often our solutions are "be more white", "stop being poor", and the like: "Abandon your perspective and become a member of the dominant group." We need solutions that acknowledge minority experiences and treat them as valuable, not solutions that simply impose majority viewpoints.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Thanks for those words in my mouth. Yes, I regard all women as shrill and bossy, and dismiss them and punish them. I'm a bad guy, and that's why I give up trying to be helpful. It couldn't be that I have reasonable notions, take a balanced view, and help where I can. And get beat up for using the wrong pronoun or whatever.

lkbm 12y ago
So use the right pronouns next time. It takes time to get it right. Dismissing it because you're not welcomed unquestioningly as the savior indicates that you're not. As I said, sure, we should be try to be nice, but being mean does not delegitimize the movement.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  How many times do you get kicked in the groin before you don't go there again? That's the point I guess I'm failing to make. There's a lot of emotion riding on this issue; if you're a guy, somebody's going to try to make you look bad. Never mind what good you might have been doing; Especially if you're getting some traction, you get torn apart. Because there's points to be scored.
  - lkbm 12y ago
    I'm a guy. I get called out on it when I get stuff wrong, but that's about it. I'll accept that there people who will attack any male voice just because they're sick of hearing them, but they're certainly not the majority in any conversation I've been a part of, especially on HackerNews.

amagumori 12y ago

"even if they're jerks?" the social-justice-on-social-media movement is a platform to publicly stone people who step out of line, not a vehicle for change. you fuck up and say something "problematic" or "harmful" on twitter just once and as soon as it's mentioned by a social justice person, everyone will try to destroy you because you're now "the enemy". if you're a white male the best thing you can do is shut the fuck up and watch because you are literally only in the movement to get ripped apart. none of these people have any respect for you in the first place. the currency of the social justice movement is being institutionally oppressed. more oppression directly gives you more authority. you have none. moreover, the fundamental currency of human self-esteem is in overcoming adversity. but as a white male, you will never be allowed to have a struggle. and if your struggle is denied, then your humanity is denied. you're here to play the role of the oppressor and the privileged. don't think you're a "fellow member" of the social justice movement. everyone already hates you.