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FedEx and UPS Refuse to Ship a Digital Mill That Can Make Untraceable Guns

23 points by mdturnerphys 12y ago

Navarr 12y ago
TL;DR: FedEx: “We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated.” UPS: A UPS spokesperson wrote in a statement that the company will only ship guns and gun parts between holders of a federal firearms license. In a follow-up statement, it confirmed that it won’t ship the Ghost Gunner either. “UPS reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns,” writes spokesperson Dan Mackin. “UPS is continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.” USPS: The US Postal Service didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether they would allow the shipment of the Ghost Gunner or other potential gunsmithing devices.
- damoncali 12y ago
  The UPS guy has no idea what he's talking about. Literally millions of gun parts are shipped to non-FFL holders (aka consumers) by UPS. As are live ammunition, powder and primers. They'll also ship actual guns both to and from non-licensed individuals as long as there is an FFL on one end. (A gunsmith is allowed to mail your gun back to you - although not to sell via mail order).
  - maratd 12y ago
    The UPS guy is saying what UPS should say. Of course, the reality is that UPS has no idea what's inside of all those boxes.
    - damoncali 12y ago
      They absolutely know. You have to pay a hazmat fee on the gunpoweder/ammo, for example, and when you're shipping boxes out of a gun parts retailer, guess what? Those boxes contain gun parts. The PR flunky is either lying or totally misinformed - I'm guessing the latter.
      - maratd 12y ago
        You can go to the UPS store and ship an unmarked package there. So how would they know?
        damoncali 12y ago
        Well, I guess they'd have to ask. But the point is that they are very much aware that they currently ship large quantities of guns, gun parts, and ammunition to unlicensed people (legally) every single day.
    - mgarfias 12y ago
      I've shipped handloaded ammo to a buddy. You absolutely have to declare what's in the box, and the box must be marked "ORM-D" on multiple sides. Oh, and you goto the UPS depot, not some retail outlet. I've had lots of non serial numbered/non ffl parts shipped to me via usps, FedEx, and ups. This guy is completely full of crap.
      - Navarr 12y ago
        Though, what he's talking about is more specific than ammo - which they probably already know all the local laws on. While I see your point, I can still believe that UPS is erring on the side of caution while they try to figure out all the legislation involved in being a courier for this type of thing.
        mgarfias 12y ago
        So they’re happy to ship me 80% AR15 lowers, along with the jig used to cut the fire control pockets. Plus all the other parts to build the AR15. But not a machine that can cut the fire control pockets for me?
falcolas 12y ago
Do they ship lathes? How about CNC metal milling machines? How, aside from the name, is this different? Strikes me as similar outlawing nc because someone might use it to do a port scan against machines they don't own.
- ianlevesque 12y ago
  I agree that there doesn't appear to be any technical difference between this CNC / 3D printer and others, but intent seems to matter a lot with the law. These are clearly marketed and sold for the purpose of firearm construction.
  - damoncali 12y ago
    Except firearm construction is totally legal.
    - wmeredith 12y ago
      As is refusing to ship something.
      - damoncali 12y ago
        True, but lets not pretend this is a legal question. Given that UPS will ship 8 pound jugs of gunpowder to unlicensed individuals every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I have a hard time believing they have some sort of philosophical objection to guns. (I have personally shipped a gun legally via UPS). So I'm going to conclude the real issue is fear. Fear of governmental overreach and all the hassles it can bring.
        fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Also Tannerite.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Fair enough. It's their prerogative. Now if they can only find the courage to be honest about that.
f3llowtraveler 12y ago
Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense Distributed. Not cool. The "regulatory uncertainty" line is the same cop-out used by banks regarding Bitcoin-related businesses. Do we now, in America, assume that something is illegal until the government explicitly tells us it's legal?
- trhway 12y ago
  >Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense Distributed. Not cool. The guys just need to have an additional "doing business as" cuddly name like "Tools for Local Sustainable Toy Milling and Crafting"
  - damoncali 12y ago
    If you read up on the guy, that's not what he wants. He doesn't care about guns. He just wants to put manufacturing technology beyond the reach of the law. He's got a bit of an anarchist bent. Guns are just the means to his end - a convenient PR vehicle. In other words, he sort of wants people to talk about banning this stuff.
MichaelGG 12y ago
So start another company that ships generic 3D printers. Put the mill in there. Then ship the informational package and gun-related stickers in a separate infokit. It's pretty silly to think FedEx and UPS are technically capable of refusing to ship based on the capability of a printer. That's really deep inspection. Jeez, just don't go around advertising that people can make guns on it. I'm sure FedEx would refuse to ship my paper printers if I got a lot of press on how you could use them to make your own currency.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
I have to hand it to the Defense Distributed guys, they sure know how to turn a non-story into headline news. Short version: FedEx and UPS get worried about liability as DD tells them they are mailing 'make your own gun kits' and decline to ship, until they understand where the ATF stands on the issue. There are a ton of things you can't ship. A number of those things are pre-cursor components to "bad things" be it bombs, weapons, or chemical compounds. Guess who takes it in the shorts for shipping them? The shipper. So our government has trained these folks to be conservative in what they will accept until they have their collective backsides covered. I get that DD is trying to foster some sort of conversation about how easy it is to fabricate fire arms, but what I don't get it what they hope to achieve, other than sales to people who are paranoid about having the 2nd amendment repealed.
- rosser 12y ago
  Do you remember when, in the wake of Sandy Hook, &c, retailers and private sellers couldn't keep large-capacity magazines on the shelves, they were selling out so quickly, and at such a premium? Now they're sitting in boxes on the floor at $10/per. Nothing like a bit of artificially inflated demand for the old bottom line, eh?
- lambdacore 12y ago
  How exactly would the ATF have jurisdiction over a CNC mill? And what liability would a common carrier be subject to for transporting a legal good?
  - ChuckMcM 12y ago
    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms [1] establishes rules and regulations regarding the ownership, sales, manufacturing, and transport of firearms across state lines. Great article on them here on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Fir... [edit] I didn't answer your question directly, they also determine what "defines" a firearm, they are the folks with the whole serial number goes on the receiver rule and that is a firearm. There is an ongoing "discussion" or "debate" over how close you can get to finishing a receiver before it becomes a receiver and thus a firearm by ATF rules. It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item. [1] My grandfather once called it "the bureau of fun stuff"
Pinckney 12y ago
Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for? "What are you shipping?" "CNC Mill." "Great, we'll be happy to ship that for you." Don't try to confuse the customer service rep by saying things that have the potential to confuse them; they don't need to know what it's meant for. It's doubtful that UPS, at a high level, cares enough to ban this. Rather, someone heard "something something GUN MACHINE," doesn't know anything about the relevant law, and made a snap decision that was least likely to get them in trouble.
- chaostheory 12y ago
  > Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for? Free national PR. Besides Wired, I've seen him on documentaries and national news broadcasts.
- damoncali 12y ago
  Wilson is in it for the PR, not the guns. He's an interesting fellow. It would defeat his stated purpose if he didn't tell anyone.
  - mturmon 12y ago
    “This is a way to jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists,” Wilson told WIRED in October. “It’s about humiliating the power that wants to humiliate you.” What an appeal! So twisted in its approach. Where do I sign up to jab at some bleeding hearts, humiliate them, STRIKE BACK!
    - 0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago
      And even if you believe it is a jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists you are still left with only part of an AR15, while these total statists control the price of ammo (they probably don't). I reckon you could jab them better by dirt farming.
      - damoncali 12y ago
Animats 12y ago
The "Ghost Gunner" is a PR stunt. The whole project is to get media coverage. As a CNC machine, it's junk. It's from the same people who 3D printed a crappy gun. The real deal is this: to get around US firearms laws, there's a mini-industry selling AR-15 "80% lower receivers".[1] These are sometimes advertised as "billets", but they're not unfinished castings. They're complete parts with a few holes omitted. With a template and a drill press, you can finish them. There's even a desktop router and jig combo to do that specific job. Costs $159.[2] The Ghost Gunner is a little CNC desktop router built to do that specific job and not much else. It has small stepping motors and toothed rubber belts, like a 3D printer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a real milling machine, so it can't push a milling cutter sideways against resistance while holding precision. You couldn't mill anything out of a block of aluminum with it. It can drill holes of one size. That's all. The site says that "pre-orders are sold out". They've been taking "non-refundable" deposits. It's quite possible that they aren't really manufacturing them, or they don't work very well, and want to claim they can't ship the things so they don't have to deliver. I looked into getting one of these because I do some machining, usually at TechShop. (I'm into Teletype restoration and steampunk.) A low-cost little home CNC mill would be nice for making small metal parts. This isn't a real CNC mill. Roland has some nice desktop CNC mills, but they're much more expensive than this thing. There's a Kickstarter project for a real 3-axis desktop mill, but it's probably going to be priced around $2600. That's entry level for milling aluminum. If they wanted to make money and milling machines, rather than get press, there's a market for little CNC mills. That Kickstarter is way oversubscribed. That's why this is all a PR stunt. [1] http://www.80percentarms.com/ http://www.80percentarms.com/ [2] http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig [3] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc-mill https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc...
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  Wait, it can't make the AR-15 part itself, it literally just drills the holes? How... utterly useless.

23 points by mdturnerphys 12y ago

TL;DR: FedEx: “We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated.” UPS: A UPS spokesperson wrote in a statement that the company will only ship guns and gun parts between holders of a federal firearms license. In a follow-up statement, it confirmed that it won’t ship the Ghost Gunner either. “UPS reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns,” writes spokesperson Dan Mackin. “UPS is continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.” USPS: The US Postal Service didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether they would allow the shipment of the Ghost Gunner or other potential gunsmithing devices.

damoncali 12y ago
The UPS guy has no idea what he's talking about. Literally millions of gun parts are shipped to non-FFL holders (aka consumers) by UPS. As are live ammunition, powder and primers. They'll also ship actual guns both to and from non-licensed individuals as long as there is an FFL on one end. (A gunsmith is allowed to mail your gun back to you - although not to sell via mail order).
- maratd 12y ago
  The UPS guy is saying what UPS should say. Of course, the reality is that UPS has no idea what's inside of all those boxes.
  - damoncali 12y ago
    They absolutely know. You have to pay a hazmat fee on the gunpoweder/ammo, for example, and when you're shipping boxes out of a gun parts retailer, guess what? Those boxes contain gun parts. The PR flunky is either lying or totally misinformed - I'm guessing the latter.
    - maratd 12y ago
      You can go to the UPS store and ship an unmarked package there. So how would they know?
      - damoncali 12y ago
        Well, I guess they'd have to ask. But the point is that they are very much aware that they currently ship large quantities of guns, gun parts, and ammunition to unlicensed people (legally) every single day.
  - mgarfias 12y ago
    I've shipped handloaded ammo to a buddy. You absolutely have to declare what's in the box, and the box must be marked "ORM-D" on multiple sides. Oh, and you goto the UPS depot, not some retail outlet. I've had lots of non serial numbered/non ffl parts shipped to me via usps, FedEx, and ups. This guy is completely full of crap.
    - Navarr 12y ago
      Though, what he's talking about is more specific than ammo - which they probably already know all the local laws on. While I see your point, I can still believe that UPS is erring on the side of caution while they try to figure out all the legislation involved in being a courier for this type of thing.
      - mgarfias 12y ago
        So they’re happy to ship me 80% AR15 lowers, along with the jig used to cut the fire control pockets. Plus all the other parts to build the AR15. But not a machine that can cut the fire control pockets for me?

falcolas 12y ago

Do they ship lathes? How about CNC metal milling machines? How, aside from the name, is this different? Strikes me as similar outlawing nc because someone might use it to do a port scan against machines they don't own.

ianlevesque 12y ago
I agree that there doesn't appear to be any technical difference between this CNC / 3D printer and others, but intent seems to matter a lot with the law. These are clearly marketed and sold for the purpose of firearm construction.
- damoncali 12y ago
  Except firearm construction is totally legal.
  - wmeredith 12y ago
    As is refusing to ship something.
    - damoncali 12y ago
      True, but lets not pretend this is a legal question. Given that UPS will ship 8 pound jugs of gunpowder to unlicensed individuals every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I have a hard time believing they have some sort of philosophical objection to guns. (I have personally shipped a gun legally via UPS). So I'm going to conclude the real issue is fear. Fear of governmental overreach and all the hassles it can bring.
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        Also Tannerite.
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      Fair enough. It's their prerogative. Now if they can only find the courage to be honest about that.

f3llowtraveler 12y ago

Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense Distributed. Not cool. The "regulatory uncertainty" line is the same cop-out used by banks regarding Bitcoin-related businesses. Do we now, in America, assume that something is illegal until the government explicitly tells us it's legal?

trhway 12y ago
>Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense Distributed. Not cool. The guys just need to have an additional "doing business as" cuddly name like "Tools for Local Sustainable Toy Milling and Crafting"
- damoncali 12y ago
  If you read up on the guy, that's not what he wants. He doesn't care about guns. He just wants to put manufacturing technology beyond the reach of the law. He's got a bit of an anarchist bent. Guns are just the means to his end - a convenient PR vehicle. In other words, he sort of wants people to talk about banning this stuff.

MichaelGG 12y ago

So start another company that ships generic 3D printers. Put the mill in there. Then ship the informational package and gun-related stickers in a separate infokit. It's pretty silly to think FedEx and UPS are technically capable of refusing to ship based on the capability of a printer. That's really deep inspection. Jeez, just don't go around advertising that people can make guns on it. I'm sure FedEx would refuse to ship my paper printers if I got a lot of press on how you could use them to make your own currency.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I have to hand it to the Defense Distributed guys, they sure know how to turn a non-story into headline news. Short version: FedEx and UPS get worried about liability as DD tells them they are mailing 'make your own gun kits' and decline to ship, until they understand where the ATF stands on the issue. There are a ton of things you can't ship. A number of those things are pre-cursor components to "bad things" be it bombs, weapons, or chemical compounds. Guess who takes it in the shorts for shipping them? The shipper. So our government has trained these folks to be conservative in what they will accept until they have their collective backsides covered. I get that DD is trying to foster some sort of conversation about how easy it is to fabricate fire arms, but what I don't get it what they hope to achieve, other than sales to people who are paranoid about having the 2nd amendment repealed.

rosser 12y ago
Do you remember when, in the wake of Sandy Hook, &c, retailers and private sellers couldn't keep large-capacity magazines on the shelves, they were selling out so quickly, and at such a premium? Now they're sitting in boxes on the floor at $10/per. Nothing like a bit of artificially inflated demand for the old bottom line, eh?
lambdacore 12y ago
How exactly would the ATF have jurisdiction over a CNC mill? And what liability would a common carrier be subject to for transporting a legal good?
- ChuckMcM 12y ago
  The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms [1] establishes rules and regulations regarding the ownership, sales, manufacturing, and transport of firearms across state lines. Great article on them here on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Fir... [edit] I didn't answer your question directly, they also determine what "defines" a firearm, they are the folks with the whole serial number goes on the receiver rule and that is a firearm. There is an ongoing "discussion" or "debate" over how close you can get to finishing a receiver before it becomes a receiver and thus a firearm by ATF rules. It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item. [1] My grandfather once called it "the bureau of fun stuff"

Pinckney 12y ago

Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for? "What are you shipping?" "CNC Mill." "Great, we'll be happy to ship that for you." Don't try to confuse the customer service rep by saying things that have the potential to confuse them; they don't need to know what it's meant for. It's doubtful that UPS, at a high level, cares enough to ban this. Rather, someone heard "something something GUN MACHINE," doesn't know anything about the relevant law, and made a snap decision that was least likely to get them in trouble.

chaostheory 12y ago
> Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for? Free national PR. Besides Wired, I've seen him on documentaries and national news broadcasts.
damoncali 12y ago
Wilson is in it for the PR, not the guns. He's an interesting fellow. It would defeat his stated purpose if he didn't tell anyone.
- mturmon 12y ago
  “This is a way to jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists,” Wilson told WIRED in October. “It’s about humiliating the power that wants to humiliate you.” What an appeal! So twisted in its approach. Where do I sign up to jab at some bleeding hearts, humiliate them, STRIKE BACK!
  - 0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago
    And even if you believe it is a jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists you are still left with only part of an AR15, while these total statists control the price of ammo (they probably don't). I reckon you could jab them better by dirt farming.
    - damoncali 12y ago

Animats 12y ago

The "Ghost Gunner" is a PR stunt. The whole project is to get media coverage. As a CNC machine, it's junk. It's from the same people who 3D printed a crappy gun. The real deal is this: to get around US firearms laws, there's a mini-industry selling AR-15 "80% lower receivers".[1] These are sometimes advertised as "billets", but they're not unfinished castings. They're complete parts with a few holes omitted. With a template and a drill press, you can finish them. There's even a desktop router and jig combo to do that specific job. Costs $159.[2] The Ghost Gunner is a little CNC desktop router built to do that specific job and not much else. It has small stepping motors and toothed rubber belts, like a 3D printer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a real milling machine, so it can't push a milling cutter sideways against resistance while holding precision. You couldn't mill anything out of a block of aluminum with it. It can drill holes of one size. That's all. The site says that "pre-orders are sold out". They've been taking "non-refundable" deposits. It's quite possible that they aren't really manufacturing them, or they don't work very well, and want to claim they can't ship the things so they don't have to deliver. I looked into getting one of these because I do some machining, usually at TechShop. (I'm into Teletype restoration and steampunk.) A low-cost little home CNC mill would be nice for making small metal parts. This isn't a real CNC mill. Roland has some nice desktop CNC mills, but they're much more expensive than this thing. There's a Kickstarter project for a real 3-axis desktop mill, but it's probably going to be priced around $2600. That's entry level for milling aluminum. If they wanted to make money and milling machines, rather than get press, there's a market for little CNC mills. That Kickstarter is way oversubscribed. That's why this is all a PR stunt. [1] http://www.80percentarms.com/ http://www.80percentarms.com/ [2] http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig [3] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc-mill https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc...

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
Wait, it can't make the AR-15 part itself, it literally just drills the holes? How... utterly useless.