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@vonnik I didn't argue that coding challenges were bad. I'm arguing that it's improper for businesses to offload their hiring costs onto programmers. Any busi

by taprun 12y ago

@vonnik I didn't argue that coding challenges were bad. I'm arguing that it's improper for businesses to offload their hiring costs onto programmers. Any business can offer a hiring challenge, but it should be prepared to pay programmers to take them. As you say, hiring someone is like getting married. So too is getting hired by someone. If I asked you (the recruiter) to write a 1,000 word essay (tailored to each applicant) on why you'd be a great employer, would you do it? Please be honest. I suspect that you'd suddenly see that your time has significant value.

vonnik 12y ago
@taprun - I understand your point. There are ways to offload hiring costs, and there are ways to share them. Should we pay software engineers to spend one hour on the phone for a technical interview? Should they pay us? The answer to both questions is "no." We both give an equal amount of unpaid time to the process to show our commitment to moving it forward. Obviously marriages are reciprocal. If a company does not treat you well in the application process, that's probably a signal that it's not a good place to work. That company does not understand how to attract talent. FutureAdvisor does not ask most software engineering candidates to complete coding challenges (when we do, it is to give someone a chance to prove their capabilities when they have fallen down elsewhere, like a makeup test). We do ask to see evidence of their work elsewhere, both on Github and in live interviews. Only performance correlates with performance. There's no way around that. In my work as a recruiter, I spend a tremendous amount of time writing emails to candidates we really want to hire. That work, like a coding challenge, is all on spec, and it often doesn't pan out. I often feel as though I've wasted my time. It's difficult to escape the strange dynamics of the job market, where goods are not substitutable, and the buyer and the seller have many idiosyncratic properties and needs that can only be communicated through ad hoc efforts like coding challenges and emails to individuals.
lingua_franca 12y ago
it's called "opportunity cost"; most ppl wouldn't mind when the opportunity is good enough. will Chad finish a coding test if Apple/Google asks? i doubt anybody would refuse knowing it might lead to a $200k+/yr job.
- fsk 12y ago
  But every lame startup acts like they're Google/Apple/Facebook. If you're a no-name startup, why should I spend 2-40 hours for the privilege of maybe meeting you?
  - vonnik 12y ago
    You shouldn't. One partial solution to the inefficiency of the job market would be a standardized and centralized coding challenge that software engineers could take once and show to many potential employers. In fact, several startups are trying to create something like that. HackerRank is one example. TrueAbility is another, specific for DevOps. These are both great ideas because employers get the information they need and engineers don't have to waste time on repeated challenges. In the end, though, it's just a prelude to showing what you can do in person, since every online test will be hacked.
    - fsk 12y ago
      Maybe everyone could go somewhere, study and be tested for a couple years, so they are certified as having basic competence? I have a CS degree with multiple honors fron a top 10 university. What was the point of that? Can't I skip the "prove you have basic competence" pre-interview screening?
      - vonnik 12y ago
        With luck, the CS degree gave you the skills to perform on the job. Unfortunately, many CS degrees do not guarantee basic competence. The problems of industry are different from the problems of academia. Things like academic pedigree and GPA don't correlate with performance on the job. This is a truth many companies learn painfully.
  - lingua_franca 12y ago
    lame firms will figure it out after being turned down several times, and eventually change the procedure. but hot firms can do whatever they want bcoz there r way more candidates than vacancies. that's what we call a "free market".

by taprun 12y ago

vonnik 12y ago

@taprun - I understand your point. There are ways to offload hiring costs, and there are ways to share them. Should we pay software engineers to spend one hour on the phone for a technical interview? Should they pay us? The answer to both questions is "no." We both give an equal amount of unpaid time to the process to show our commitment to moving it forward. Obviously marriages are reciprocal. If a company does not treat you well in the application process, that's probably a signal that it's not a good place to work. That company does not understand how to attract talent. FutureAdvisor does not ask most software engineering candidates to complete coding challenges (when we do, it is to give someone a chance to prove their capabilities when they have fallen down elsewhere, like a makeup test). We do ask to see evidence of their work elsewhere, both on Github and in live interviews. Only performance correlates with performance. There's no way around that. In my work as a recruiter, I spend a tremendous amount of time writing emails to candidates we really want to hire. That work, like a coding challenge, is all on spec, and it often doesn't pan out. I often feel as though I've wasted my time. It's difficult to escape the strange dynamics of the job market, where goods are not substitutable, and the buyer and the seller have many idiosyncratic properties and needs that can only be communicated through ad hoc efforts like coding challenges and emails to individuals.

lingua_franca 12y ago

it's called "opportunity cost"; most ppl wouldn't mind when the opportunity is good enough. will Chad finish a coding test if Apple/Google asks? i doubt anybody would refuse knowing it might lead to a $200k+/yr job.

fsk 12y ago
But every lame startup acts like they're Google/Apple/Facebook. If you're a no-name startup, why should I spend 2-40 hours for the privilege of maybe meeting you?
- vonnik 12y ago
  You shouldn't. One partial solution to the inefficiency of the job market would be a standardized and centralized coding challenge that software engineers could take once and show to many potential employers. In fact, several startups are trying to create something like that. HackerRank is one example. TrueAbility is another, specific for DevOps. These are both great ideas because employers get the information they need and engineers don't have to waste time on repeated challenges. In the end, though, it's just a prelude to showing what you can do in person, since every online test will be hacked.
  - fsk 12y ago
    Maybe everyone could go somewhere, study and be tested for a couple years, so they are certified as having basic competence? I have a CS degree with multiple honors fron a top 10 university. What was the point of that? Can't I skip the "prove you have basic competence" pre-interview screening?
    - vonnik 12y ago
      With luck, the CS degree gave you the skills to perform on the job. Unfortunately, many CS degrees do not guarantee basic competence. The problems of industry are different from the problems of academia. Things like academic pedigree and GPA don't correlate with performance on the job. This is a truth many companies learn painfully.
- lingua_franca 12y ago
  lame firms will figure it out after being turned down several times, and eventually change the procedure. but hot firms can do whatever they want bcoz there r way more candidates than vacancies. that's what we call a "free market".