4 ms·

Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide? It doesn't seem like a re-org is the proper response to i

by logn 12y ago

Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide? It doesn't seem like a re-org is the proper response to institutionalized torture, semi-automated assassination campaigns, and creation of a panopticon.

itg 12y ago
So we should be left in the dark? I would not want the NSA/CIA shutdown unless the same is done with Russia's FSB or Pakistan's ISI.
- RankingMember 12y ago
  Therein lies the rub. There is a middle ground here, but people are (rightfully) foaming at the mouth with anti-NSA rage. In my eyes, this whole situation (NSA going off the map and doing whatever they want) stems from giving them free range with little to no oversight. They simply need better oversight and real consequences for leadership who don't act in the public interest (as determined by a neutral party, albeit a neutral party with top secret clearances).
  - shit_parade 12y ago
    'foaming at the mouth' is an Orwellian characterization of what is a profound and rational aversion to totalitarian state surveillance. Stop using the metaphor of a rabies infected dog to describe those who wish to live without the government spying on them.
    - RankingMember 12y ago
      To "stop" a behavior or other action, one would still need to be partaking in said action. See, I can use a word or phrase in an internet comment as an excuse to be miserably pedantic too.
      - shit_parade 12y ago
        https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
unreal37 12y ago
It's better to keep the good parts and reform the bad parts than to throw the entire baby out completely. Let's draw a parallel to something more tangible than the cyberwar we don't see. Recently there was a number of high-profile cases where police got into a clash with unarmed civilians, with disastrous results. Should police be shut down completely? Would you be safe in a city with no police? Many cities in the world have places where the police don't go, and those are dangerous places. NSA and CIA serve important functions. They just need to be properly balanced.
- logn 12y ago
  Should we have tried to reform the Gestapo or Stasi too? Also, we cannot confirm or deny that the NSA and CIA do anything important.
- LordKano 12y ago
  --Should police be shut down completely? Sometimes, yes. When the corruption and brutality is so bad that there's no other option. --Would you be safe in a city with no police? In Acapulco, the answer was yes. The police went on strike and it was so much better without them that the people didn't want them back.
- shit_parade 12y ago
  Are you aware of the recent guardian article about a Chicago police blacksite[0]? Your analogy is inappropriate in the face of systematic torture, killing, and corrupition of law by American institutions. Simplistic analogies will not fix this problem nor do they help the discourse. 0:http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/25/chicago-homan-square-former-justice-officials-call-for-investigation http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/25/chicago-homan...
pekk 12y ago
The US Army kills people. What does the US Army have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide?
Estragon 12y ago
The fundamental issue isn't their culture or organizational structure, it's their unethical missions, which breed cultures of secrecy and opaque, unaccountable and defensive institutions. I don't see how you can set up a spy agency to prevent it from evolving in that direction. Would love to hear of counter-examples, though.
tomjen3 12y ago
>Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? The US signs a complete unconditional surrender on the deck of the $SHIP of $NEW_WORLD_POWER - at least that would be my guess based on history. We don't stop for genocide.

by logn 12y ago

itg 12y ago

So we should be left in the dark? I would not want the NSA/CIA shutdown unless the same is done with Russia's FSB or Pakistan's ISI.

RankingMember 12y ago
Therein lies the rub. There is a middle ground here, but people are (rightfully) foaming at the mouth with anti-NSA rage. In my eyes, this whole situation (NSA going off the map and doing whatever they want) stems from giving them free range with little to no oversight. They simply need better oversight and real consequences for leadership who don't act in the public interest (as determined by a neutral party, albeit a neutral party with top secret clearances).
- shit_parade 12y ago
  'foaming at the mouth' is an Orwellian characterization of what is a profound and rational aversion to totalitarian state surveillance. Stop using the metaphor of a rabies infected dog to describe those who wish to live without the government spying on them.
  - RankingMember 12y ago
    To "stop" a behavior or other action, one would still need to be partaking in said action. See, I can use a word or phrase in an internet comment as an excuse to be miserably pedantic too.
    - shit_parade 12y ago
      https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

unreal37 12y ago

It's better to keep the good parts and reform the bad parts than to throw the entire baby out completely. Let's draw a parallel to something more tangible than the cyberwar we don't see. Recently there was a number of high-profile cases where police got into a clash with unarmed civilians, with disastrous results. Should police be shut down completely? Would you be safe in a city with no police? Many cities in the world have places where the police don't go, and those are dangerous places. NSA and CIA serve important functions. They just need to be properly balanced.

logn 12y ago
Should we have tried to reform the Gestapo or Stasi too? Also, we cannot confirm or deny that the NSA and CIA do anything important.
LordKano 12y ago
--Should police be shut down completely? Sometimes, yes. When the corruption and brutality is so bad that there's no other option. --Would you be safe in a city with no police? In Acapulco, the answer was yes. The police went on strike and it was so much better without them that the people didn't want them back.
shit_parade 12y ago
Are you aware of the recent guardian article about a Chicago police blacksite[0]? Your analogy is inappropriate in the face of systematic torture, killing, and corrupition of law by American institutions. Simplistic analogies will not fix this problem nor do they help the discourse. 0:http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/25/chicago-homan-square-former-justice-officials-call-for-investigation http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/25/chicago-homan...

pekk 12y ago

The US Army kills people. What does the US Army have to do to get shut down completely? Do we wait until genocide?

Estragon 12y ago

The fundamental issue isn't their culture or organizational structure, it's their unethical missions, which breed cultures of secrecy and opaque, unaccountable and defensive institutions. I don't see how you can set up a spy agency to prevent it from evolving in that direction. Would love to hear of counter-examples, though.

tomjen3 12y ago

>Regarding NSA and CIA, what do they have to do to get shut down completely? The US signs a complete unconditional surrender on the deck of the $SHIP of $NEW_WORLD_POWER - at least that would be my guess based on history. We don't stop for genocide.