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It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating w

by bonn1 12y ago

It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS, just like Microsoft 15 years ago. They only speed up their rendering engine and JS core but don't try to help on standards improving the web experience. BUT: I doubt this pointer event thing is a good example for their reluctance because it's really just a nice-to-have feature for the Surface and the Note series which is for my taste a too small target to justify a standard. A good example for Apple reluctance to innovate the web is CSS Flexbox. CSS Flexbox is the best positioning standard I encountered, every vendor supports it, only Apple still prefixes it with -webkit. Another example is their reluctance to make WKWebview fully workable, since months there is still a bug which prevents WKWebview loading local files, the bug was already fixed in an early beta of iOS 8 but then they put it again in. WKWebKit is way more performant than UIWebview and can produce butter smooth HTML5 apps with Cordova/Phonegap but this one bug makes it hard (people already build local web servers to work around this problem). EDIT/ADDITION: A third and probably the most obvious indication that Apple doesn't want innovation in the browser space is their ban on 3rd party browsers on iOS. Benjaminjackman articulated this well in this thread below: "And yet here we are 15 years later and the iOS platform is doing just that, Apple is embracing this Microsoft strategy and extending it to a whole new level by flat out banning 3rd party browsers and so we all run the risk of having this great renaissance in browser application innovation extinguished into a second dark age."

bhouston 12y ago
> It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS I worry about this regarding Google as well. Both Apple and Google benefit from App lockin. :/ NOTE: You can downvote me, but web apps are secondary on mobile -- remember all those Chrome apps people have on the desktop, they are not treated the same as Andriod Apps on mobile, even though they could be.
- emodendroket 12y ago
  Really? Google is still the company behind Chromebooks, Docs, Gmail, and other attempts to replace desktop apps with Web stuff.
  - josefresco 12y ago
    Google seems to play both sides - they embrace the web, but also the "app" and marketplace model. With Chrome OS, Chrome Browser running Chrome Apps - is that sill the "open web"?
  - nailer 12y ago
    That's true on desktop, but on iPad, for example, Google cover Gmail and Google Maps with native app spam banners.
TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
I doubt it's intentional malice. I think it's just Apple's engineers being spread too thin. Before Blink, they had Google's manpower also helping them. Now that's gone. Flexbox will come, it'll just take Apple a while to implement it.
- matthewmacleod 12y ago
  Flexbox will come, it'll just take Apple a while to implement it. Flexbox is already fully implemented in Safari and has been since 6.1. The only difference is the use of a prefix.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    Wait, so why are people complaining, then? It can be unprefixed when it is finished, right?
- notthetup 12y ago
  I have heard of a similar reasoning for Apple not supporting WebRTC.
matthewmacleod 12y ago
It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps No, it's not at all obvious, and the objections you've raised do not support your view at all. CSS Flexbox is the best positioning standard I encountered, every vendor supports it, only Apple still prefixes it with -webkit That's a really pedantic objection — prefixing CSS standards which aren't actually finished is exactly what prefixing is for. It's hardly an anti-web move to keep it prefixed, and anybody who wants to use it can already do so with minimal additional effort. Another example is their reluctance to make WKWebview fully workable I find that argument very suspect, since Apple could easily just not have released WKWebView in the first place if they wanted to prevent it's use.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  Apple only has finite resources, too. I doubt WKWebView is neglected, they may just be focussing on fixing something else.
  - falcolas 12y ago
    > Apple only has finite resources, too. Apple's finite is larger than every other company out there (to quote an article from earlier this week). I'm pretty sure that any issues Safari is encountering is not due to Apple reaching a "finite" limit of any kind. EDIT: Many of your responses posit Apple as some kind of underdog, struggling to make it in this industry. Given Apple's size and talent, this viewpoint is all but indefensible. If having an industry leading browser it was a priority for Apple, it would get done. That it's not getting done indicates either that the developers are incompetent, or that the developers' efforts are genuine but being sabotaged due to politics. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
    - benjaminjackman 12y ago
      I believe politics is the reason here too, their strategy appears to be to hinder the browser on their iOS platform to encourage native app development which locks developers into their platform which then locks users of those developers' software into their platform. This is demonstrated by making certain features of application development on their devices only accessible by writing native software. The simple workaround would be to write your own browser and put it on their platform. That is expressly verboten or else I'd already be using an iPhone running Firefox, instead I use and android that runs firefox and which has extensions since it's what it's users want vs what the payers of the browsers developers salaries want. So the strategy MS used to buy years of revenue for win+office was to bundle a default browser to control the web platform and strategically hinder it whenever it threatened their core income centers. The default opt-out required momentum plus the fact that netscape did themselves no favors led to a dark age of web platform innovation as MS corruptly controlled the space and acted as negligent stewards. What is totally insane to me is that a large portion of the Microsoft anti-trust trial revolved around them simply providing a default browser, it is hard to imagine even they would have blocked netscape software from running on their platform outright. And yet here we are 15 years later and the iOS platform is doing just that, Apple is embracing this Microsoft strategy and extending it to a whole new level by flat out banning 3rd party browsers and so we all run the risk of having this great renaissance in browser application innovation extinguished into a second dark age.
sirn 12y ago
>CSS Flexbox is the best positioning standard I encountered, every vendor supports it, only Apple still prefixes it with -webkit. Flexbox has been unprefixed in WebKit r173579[1][2]. Presumably, it will be available when Apple release the next version of Safari. Reading the Bugzilla, the reason of not unprefixing the feature seems to be lack of contributors on WebKit's part than anything. [1]: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173579 http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173579 [2]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98420 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98420
- bonn1 12y ago
  > Presumably, it will be available when Apple release the next version of Safari How do you know? It's was unprefixed already ~3 months ago, so why should it happen with the next release? And when does the next release come? And why do their release cycles are not as short as those from Chrome or Firefox? Because it's not their core business. > ... to be lack of contributors on WebKit's part than anything. Exactly what I wrote: Apple is focussing on other stuff than the web because—again—it's not their core business. They have two browsers, mobile Safari and desktop Safari and none of them got this important upgrade yet. A fast innovating web isn't in Apple's favor.
  - sirn 12y ago
    > How do you know? It's was unprefixed already ~3 months ago, so why should it happen with the next release? It was unprefixed ~6 months ago. Their latest Safari release tracks WebKit release 600 which contains all changes until July 2014[1]. The latest WebKit release is 601, which contains all changes until September 2014[2], including the flexbox unprefixing. Safari normally update WebKit to the latest release in a non-maintenance update (e.g. Safari 8.1) so it should be available with the next release. Another thing to note is that their Web Inspector (which is built with HTML+CSS+JS) already uses the unprefixed flexbox in trunk, so if they want to ship the updated Inspector, they will eventually have to ship the feature anyway. [1]: http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-600.1.1/ChangeLog http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-600.1.1/Cha... [2]: http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-601.1.1/Source/WebCore/ChangeLog http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-601.1.1/Sou...
jasonsync 12y ago
How about Apple's refusal to fix blob URL download support? https://github.com/eligrey/FileSaver.js/issues/12 https://github.com/eligrey/FileSaver.js/issues/12
BinaryIdiot 12y ago
> BUT: I doubt this pointer event thing is a good example for their reluctance because it's really just a nice-to-have feature for the Surface and the Note series which is for my taste a too small target to justify a standard. This is inaccurate. The pointer events standard allows you to avoid the 300ms delay mobile / touch screen browsers have and is useful across all devices. Without it you have to continue using hacks to prevent the delay.
- bonn1 12y ago
  This is inaccurate. Nowadays, the 300ms goes already away if you set the meta viewport tag with width=device-width etc [1] [1] http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-away http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-a...
  - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
    That is still pretty new and not all browsers support it; pointer events is a better solution to this problem.
    - bonn1 12y ago
      Chrome on Android and Safari on iOS support it for more than a year now => 93% of the market
      - Elepsis 12y ago
        Your 93% market number is perhaps accurate in the entirely hypothetical world where most Android devices actually get swift upgrades to new versions, but not in reality.
electic 12y ago
It is quite simple. I have a few friends who work for Apple and they are exhausted. They don't have time to fix everything and they don't simply hire in mass because they believe in quality. A lot of these issues will not get fixed anytime soon at this rate. So you are right. Safari is starting to get neglected but it is not for the reasons you think.
- pas 12y ago
  Then they missed that mark with IndexedDB: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9106752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9106752
bitdev 12y ago
Am I missing something? Banning 3rd party browsers? Isn't there chrome for iOS, as well as atomic web browser? Just off the top of my head. Maybe others, for all I know.
- orkoden 12y ago
  They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.
- orkoden 12y ago
  They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.

by bonn1 12y ago

bhouston 12y ago

> It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps. They shouldn't have any interest in a fast innovating web that gets on par with native apps which is their main lock-in for iOS I worry about this regarding Google as well. Both Apple and Google benefit from App lockin. :/ NOTE: You can downvote me, but web apps are secondary on mobile -- remember all those Chrome apps people have on the desktop, they are not treated the same as Andriod Apps on mobile, even though they could be.

emodendroket 12y ago
Really? Google is still the company behind Chromebooks, Docs, Gmail, and other attempts to replace desktop apps with Web stuff.
- josefresco 12y ago
  Google seems to play both sides - they embrace the web, but also the "app" and marketplace model. With Chrome OS, Chrome Browser running Chrome Apps - is that sill the "open web"?
- nailer 12y ago
  That's true on desktop, but on iPad, for example, Google cover Gmail and Google Maps with native app spam banners.

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago

I doubt it's intentional malice. I think it's just Apple's engineers being spread too thin. Before Blink, they had Google's manpower also helping them. Now that's gone. Flexbox will come, it'll just take Apple a while to implement it.

matthewmacleod 12y ago
Flexbox will come, it'll just take Apple a while to implement it. Flexbox is already fully implemented in Safari and has been since 6.1. The only difference is the use of a prefix.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  Wait, so why are people complaining, then? It can be unprefixed when it is finished, right?
notthetup 12y ago
I have heard of a similar reasoning for Apple not supporting WebRTC.

matthewmacleod 12y ago

It's obvious that Apple slowed down innovating the web since the core of their business is iOS and apps No, it's not at all obvious, and the objections you've raised do not support your view at all. CSS Flexbox is the best positioning standard I encountered, every vendor supports it, only Apple still prefixes it with -webkit That's a really pedantic objection — prefixing CSS standards which aren't actually finished is exactly what prefixing is for. It's hardly an anti-web move to keep it prefixed, and anybody who wants to use it can already do so with minimal additional effort. Another example is their reluctance to make WKWebview fully workable I find that argument very suspect, since Apple could easily just not have released WKWebView in the first place if they wanted to prevent it's use.

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
Apple only has finite resources, too. I doubt WKWebView is neglected, they may just be focussing on fixing something else.
- falcolas 12y ago
  > Apple only has finite resources, too. Apple's finite is larger than every other company out there (to quote an article from earlier this week). I'm pretty sure that any issues Safari is encountering is not due to Apple reaching a "finite" limit of any kind. EDIT: Many of your responses posit Apple as some kind of underdog, struggling to make it in this industry. Given Apple's size and talent, this viewpoint is all but indefensible. If having an industry leading browser it was a priority for Apple, it would get done. That it's not getting done indicates either that the developers are incompetent, or that the developers' efforts are genuine but being sabotaged due to politics. I'm inclined to believe the latter.
  - benjaminjackman 12y ago
    I believe politics is the reason here too, their strategy appears to be to hinder the browser on their iOS platform to encourage native app development which locks developers into their platform which then locks users of those developers' software into their platform. This is demonstrated by making certain features of application development on their devices only accessible by writing native software. The simple workaround would be to write your own browser and put it on their platform. That is expressly verboten or else I'd already be using an iPhone running Firefox, instead I use and android that runs firefox and which has extensions since it's what it's users want vs what the payers of the browsers developers salaries want. So the strategy MS used to buy years of revenue for win+office was to bundle a default browser to control the web platform and strategically hinder it whenever it threatened their core income centers. The default opt-out required momentum plus the fact that netscape did themselves no favors led to a dark age of web platform innovation as MS corruptly controlled the space and acted as negligent stewards. What is totally insane to me is that a large portion of the Microsoft anti-trust trial revolved around them simply providing a default browser, it is hard to imagine even they would have blocked netscape software from running on their platform outright. And yet here we are 15 years later and the iOS platform is doing just that, Apple is embracing this Microsoft strategy and extending it to a whole new level by flat out banning 3rd party browsers and so we all run the risk of having this great renaissance in browser application innovation extinguished into a second dark age.

sirn 12y ago

>CSS Flexbox is the best positioning standard I encountered, every vendor supports it, only Apple still prefixes it with -webkit. Flexbox has been unprefixed in WebKit r173579[1][2]. Presumably, it will be available when Apple release the next version of Safari. Reading the Bugzilla, the reason of not unprefixing the feature seems to be lack of contributors on WebKit's part than anything. [1]: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173579 http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173579 [2]: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98420 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98420

bonn1 12y ago
> Presumably, it will be available when Apple release the next version of Safari How do you know? It's was unprefixed already ~3 months ago, so why should it happen with the next release? And when does the next release come? And why do their release cycles are not as short as those from Chrome or Firefox? Because it's not their core business. > ... to be lack of contributors on WebKit's part than anything. Exactly what I wrote: Apple is focussing on other stuff than the web because—again—it's not their core business. They have two browsers, mobile Safari and desktop Safari and none of them got this important upgrade yet. A fast innovating web isn't in Apple's favor.
- sirn 12y ago
  > How do you know? It's was unprefixed already ~3 months ago, so why should it happen with the next release? It was unprefixed ~6 months ago. Their latest Safari release tracks WebKit release 600 which contains all changes until July 2014[1]. The latest WebKit release is 601, which contains all changes until September 2014[2], including the flexbox unprefixing. Safari normally update WebKit to the latest release in a non-maintenance update (e.g. Safari 8.1) so it should be available with the next release. Another thing to note is that their Web Inspector (which is built with HTML+CSS+JS) already uses the unprefixed flexbox in trunk, so if they want to ship the updated Inspector, they will eventually have to ship the feature anyway. [1]: http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-600.1.1/ChangeLog http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-600.1.1/Cha... [2]: http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-601.1.1/Source/WebCore/ChangeLog http://trac.webkit.org/export/180623/tags/Safari-601.1.1/Sou...

jasonsync 12y ago

How about Apple's refusal to fix blob URL download support? https://github.com/eligrey/FileSaver.js/issues/12 https://github.com/eligrey/FileSaver.js/issues/12

BinaryIdiot 12y ago

> BUT: I doubt this pointer event thing is a good example for their reluctance because it's really just a nice-to-have feature for the Surface and the Note series which is for my taste a too small target to justify a standard. This is inaccurate. The pointer events standard allows you to avoid the 300ms delay mobile / touch screen browsers have and is useful across all devices. Without it you have to continue using hacks to prevent the delay.

bonn1 12y ago
This is inaccurate. Nowadays, the 300ms goes already away if you set the meta viewport tag with width=device-width etc [1] [1] http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-away http://updates.html5rocks.com/2013/12/300ms-tap-delay-gone-a...
- BinaryIdiot 12y ago
  That is still pretty new and not all browsers support it; pointer events is a better solution to this problem.
  - bonn1 12y ago
    Chrome on Android and Safari on iOS support it for more than a year now => 93% of the market
    - Elepsis 12y ago
      Your 93% market number is perhaps accurate in the entirely hypothetical world where most Android devices actually get swift upgrades to new versions, but not in reality.

electic 12y ago

It is quite simple. I have a few friends who work for Apple and they are exhausted. They don't have time to fix everything and they don't simply hire in mass because they believe in quality. A lot of these issues will not get fixed anytime soon at this rate. So you are right. Safari is starting to get neglected but it is not for the reasons you think.

pas 12y ago
Then they missed that mark with IndexedDB: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9106752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9106752

bitdev 12y ago

Am I missing something? Banning 3rd party browsers? Isn't there chrome for iOS, as well as atomic web browser? Just off the top of my head. Maybe others, for all I know.

orkoden 12y ago
They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.
orkoden 12y ago
They all use the same rendering engine as Safari though.