3 ms·

Why movies look weird at 48fps, and games are better at 60fps

25 points by KhalilK 12y ago

santaclaus 12y ago
Original discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8793346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8793346
Thaxll 12y ago
I think it's just a question of habit nothing more.
m3rc 12y ago
Movies don't look "weird" at 48fps, they just look different from what we're used to. However watching 24fps movies on a TV with a higher refresh-rate that just duplicate frames, DOES look weird, and that's not a very pleasant experience.
- jerf 12y ago
  I've made that argument in the past too. However, the linked blog post does make an interesting case that there is some reason to believe it does in fact look objectively "weird". There should be ways to test this. This theory implies that video games should look "better" in an A-B comparison at 60fps if you add certain types of probably-subtle noise to them, probably even through temporary frame rate drops. If so, that would be an awfully cheap way to improve game graphics.
  - chadgeidel 12y ago
    I seem to remember that this was the idea in the development process of Lost Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Planet:_Extreme_Condition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Planet:_Extreme_Condition). My Google-fu is failing me, I don't see any articles that explain the developer's intent.
- TillE 12y ago
  The only persuasive point I've seen against HFR movies is that they can reveal a little too much detail. Movies rely on makeup and props and sets which may create a good illusion of reality at 24 fps, but maybe not at 48.
- ashark 12y ago
  The worst I can say about most HFR video I've seen is that it looked bit soap-opera like, which I get is a conditioned thing. The Hobbit in particular, however, looked like it was playing back at 1.2x normal speed. I hated it. Kept expecting Buster Keaton to show up. I wouldn't mind more movies shot in HFR, from what I've seen of it in general. It seems fine. Nice, even. I would prefer they not start doing whatever The Hobbit did.
Retric 12y ago
This is full of interesting bits, but on the whole it's vary wrong. There was a lot of reasons why Toy Story looked fine even @480p. Motion blur helps make lower frame rates seem more 'real' as does rock steady FPS. Monitors are also all or nothing with when it comes to frame rates. So a 59FPS video game on a 60FPS monitor is basicly jumping between 60FPS and 30FPS when it misses a frame drop below 30 and it get's even worse. Also, movies tend to avoid things that seem odd, like wheels seeming to move backwords when low frame rates mix with fast rotating objects.
- theandrewbailey 12y ago
  Conventional monitors are all or nothing (60fps or 30fps), but that's changing. http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/g-sync http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/g-sync http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/technologies-gaming/freesync http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/t...
adrusi 12y ago
Movies at 48fps look fine to me, great even. There's something to be said for the cinematographic effect low framerate+motion blur, and there's a long history of chemical and digital post-processing techniques that take advantage of motion blur. However, what works to the favor of The Grand Budapest Hotel doesn't necessarily have a place in The Hobbit. Higher framerate is useful for enhancing the visual acuity of battle scenes and for immersion. These are not the primary goals of all movies, though. As graphics technology improves, I think we'll start to see some games opt to render at lower framerates. Probably not games that require split-second reaction times or any first-person games where the camera moves violently (for instance, Starcraft, Counterstrike). Games aiming for a more artistic impression, such as puzzle games (Portal, The Witness), RPGs (The Elder Scrolls), adventure games (Brothers), however, might choose to initially render at an extremely high framerate, say 240fps, and then use that data to generate true motion blur at something like 30fps. We might eventually see movies shift to such a system, where they are recorded at very high framerates and arithmetically stitched together into something more traditional. This would stand to benefit remastering efforts 50 years after the initial production when better technology becomes available. But cinema has always been slow to adopt new technology: sound, color, digital, etc.
Mithaldu 12y ago
While the tremor thing might be a factor, it's by far not the main reasons why games need higher framerate. Games are fundamentally different from films for a simple fact: Games show reactions to your input, films are only consumed passively. This means for games it's not only important how the stuff on the screen looks and moves, but how much time passes between you pressing a button, and a thing moving. At 60 FPS that time is ~16 ms, which is almost unnoticable. At 30 FPS that time is ~32 ms, twice as long, and for people used to 60 FPS extremely noticable as a form of sluggishness on the controls. (Although for some games that have the gameplay with some inbuilt sluggishness that effect disappears, Dark Souls for example.)

25 points by KhalilK 12y ago

santaclaus 12y ago

Original discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8793346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8793346

Thaxll 12y ago

I think it's just a question of habit nothing more.

m3rc 12y ago

Movies don't look "weird" at 48fps, they just look different from what we're used to. However watching 24fps movies on a TV with a higher refresh-rate that just duplicate frames, DOES look weird, and that's not a very pleasant experience.

jerf 12y ago
I've made that argument in the past too. However, the linked blog post does make an interesting case that there is some reason to believe it does in fact look objectively "weird". There should be ways to test this. This theory implies that video games should look "better" in an A-B comparison at 60fps if you add certain types of probably-subtle noise to them, probably even through temporary frame rate drops. If so, that would be an awfully cheap way to improve game graphics.
- chadgeidel 12y ago
  I seem to remember that this was the idea in the development process of Lost Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Planet:_Extreme_Condition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Planet:_Extreme_Condition). My Google-fu is failing me, I don't see any articles that explain the developer's intent.
TillE 12y ago
The only persuasive point I've seen against HFR movies is that they can reveal a little too much detail. Movies rely on makeup and props and sets which may create a good illusion of reality at 24 fps, but maybe not at 48.
ashark 12y ago
The worst I can say about most HFR video I've seen is that it looked bit soap-opera like, which I get is a conditioned thing. The Hobbit in particular, however, looked like it was playing back at 1.2x normal speed. I hated it. Kept expecting Buster Keaton to show up. I wouldn't mind more movies shot in HFR, from what I've seen of it in general. It seems fine. Nice, even. I would prefer they not start doing whatever The Hobbit did.

Retric 12y ago

This is full of interesting bits, but on the whole it's vary wrong. There was a lot of reasons why Toy Story looked fine even @480p. Motion blur helps make lower frame rates seem more 'real' as does rock steady FPS. Monitors are also all or nothing with when it comes to frame rates. So a 59FPS video game on a 60FPS monitor is basicly jumping between 60FPS and 30FPS when it misses a frame drop below 30 and it get's even worse. Also, movies tend to avoid things that seem odd, like wheels seeming to move backwords when low frame rates mix with fast rotating objects.

theandrewbailey 12y ago
Conventional monitors are all or nothing (60fps or 30fps), but that's changing. http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/g-sync http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/g-sync http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/technologies-gaming/freesync http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/t...

adrusi 12y ago

Movies at 48fps look fine to me, great even. There's something to be said for the cinematographic effect low framerate+motion blur, and there's a long history of chemical and digital post-processing techniques that take advantage of motion blur. However, what works to the favor of The Grand Budapest Hotel doesn't necessarily have a place in The Hobbit. Higher framerate is useful for enhancing the visual acuity of battle scenes and for immersion. These are not the primary goals of all movies, though. As graphics technology improves, I think we'll start to see some games opt to render at lower framerates. Probably not games that require split-second reaction times or any first-person games where the camera moves violently (for instance, Starcraft, Counterstrike). Games aiming for a more artistic impression, such as puzzle games (Portal, The Witness), RPGs (The Elder Scrolls), adventure games (Brothers), however, might choose to initially render at an extremely high framerate, say 240fps, and then use that data to generate true motion blur at something like 30fps. We might eventually see movies shift to such a system, where they are recorded at very high framerates and arithmetically stitched together into something more traditional. This would stand to benefit remastering efforts 50 years after the initial production when better technology becomes available. But cinema has always been slow to adopt new technology: sound, color, digital, etc.

Mithaldu 12y ago

While the tremor thing might be a factor, it's by far not the main reasons why games need higher framerate. Games are fundamentally different from films for a simple fact: Games show reactions to your input, films are only consumed passively. This means for games it's not only important how the stuff on the screen looks and moves, but how much time passes between you pressing a button, and a thing moving. At 60 FPS that time is ~16 ms, which is almost unnoticable. At 30 FPS that time is ~32 ms, twice as long, and for people used to 60 FPS extremely noticable as a form of sluggishness on the controls. (Although for some games that have the gameplay with some inbuilt sluggishness that effect disappears, Dark Souls for example.)