4 ms·

In a similar vein, I'd also like to know how many people manage to land jobs at the Google's and Facebook's of the world, and ultimately prove to be less-than-s

by EnderMB 12y ago

In a similar vein, I'd also like to know how many people manage to land jobs at the Google's and Facebook's of the world, and ultimately prove to be less-than-spectacular developers. I dropped out of a masters degree to join a startup as a .NET developer, but kept in touch with a few guys finishing there. One of them now works for Google. He was always great in the algorithm classes, and he knew his theory reasonably well, but he'd constantly struggle with writing the code and REALLY grasping OO. I'd help him structure his Java code, and he'd help me grasp data structures. He's been there a good four years now, so he's clearly doing something right, but I was initially shocked that he was able to get in when things like static classes confused him.

rplnt 12y ago
Google employs thousands of developers. They can't be that strict about who they hire as a 5-people startup. So they sure have lot of less-than-spectacular developers and they don't care. You need talented people as architects (or whatever), not your code monkeys.
- EnderMB 12y ago
  This is definitely true of large firms, but it still surprises me that the likes of Google could have developers that could get through the Google interview process, but would probably struggle with a take-home test from a company looking for someone to demonstrate an ability to be able to build something.
hmottestad 12y ago
Maybe he gets to work on difficult problems that can only be solved by a great algorithm. Or maybe he works on making a set of algorithms 5% faster. Making a sorting algorithm just 1% faster for the most used cases will probably save a company like Google vast amounts of electricity. I guess there are plenty people who understand both algorithms and programming language features well. But if you want someone who is awesome in algorithms you might not care if they couldn't grasp the simplest programming language feature like a for-each loop, or a static variable.
- rifung 12y ago
  At such a big company, I doubt anyone could get a job just working on algorithms coming out of undergrad. Maybe if you had a PhD in a relevant field I could see it. I'd bet almost everyone at Google is extremely good with algorithms when compared to the whole population of developers so I really don't see them giving this kind of sought after position to someone so junior. There's just too much risk for the managers to give it to someone who's still unproven.
rogy 12y ago
I went to University with someone who aced every written CS exam in 'software patterns', 'user experience', 'computer architecture' and the like who landed a job at Google as a software engineer straight out of uni. They couldn't complete a single practical lab exercise without help from peers or lecturers throughout the entire time I knew them. They didn't make it past their trial period.
- EnderMB 12y ago
  Sounds exactly like the guy I knew. In writing, he knew it all, but had no reference to actually apply it. It sounds like many CS graduates, myself included; without applying yourself in a non-academic setting it's quite hard to be a good developer, because the projects simply aren't big enough or haven't had the man-hours applied. It makes me wonder whether these hiring processes are built for people leaving university, and not necessarily for those that have spent a number of years as software developers. It's a good way to get those that "know" their theory, but it sounds like a terrible way to hire someone who is expected to be not just a competent developer, but talented.
- MollyR 12y ago
  I used to be like the person you're describing. I had such a hard time with actual software development, until a few years in, when all the theoretical knowledge "clicked". Then I was able to always make consistent gains in dev skills from the os level to higher level software architecture. I think it was because I could understand the core abstractions from the higher level ones. Though I also might be an outlier, because even out of school I study a few hours a night.
Morgawr 12y ago
A thing that we all have to consider is that we've all been beginners once, it really does not matter. Throughout my entire academic career (bachelor + master in CS) I've met my fair share of brilliant people that still struggled with concepts that to me looked very simple and straightforward, and I've also struggled with stuff that others find very easy and natural. It really does not matter, you always learn something new and the things that we didn't know yesterday can turn into the things we know best tomorrow simply because we keep evolving and bettering ourselves. Just because somebody had a hard time grasping Object Oriented Programming (which, really, is not as useful anymore. Plenty of brilliant developers moved past it) in school does not mean that he'd not be a good fit for a demanding company a few years later. This is true for everybody, by the way, just because you feel like you're struggling on some concepts, don't dismiss yourselves. Try applying at some companies that might be 'out of your league' and you will realize that maybe some of them actually aren't that out there after all.
area51org 12y ago
ultimately prove to be less-than-spectacular developers There's no sure-fire way to know exactly who you're hiring unless you know the person (and even then!). But: many of these companies are using the wrong criteria, out of bad habit or sheer laziness. You get "brain teaser" questions ("how would you tell which light bulb had been on in the past 10 minutes?"), coding tests, even demands to know which lsof flag does foobar (but that's why God invented man pages!). In my estimation, the only real way to get inside someone's head is to get them talking about what they've worked on, hear their war stories, and talk in depth about how they've solved problems and built things.
gaius 12y ago
Let's be honest, 99% of Google employees are not working on hard problems like self-driving cars, they're just finding new things to slap ads on. You might need to be impressive in a very narrow way to get in, but the work isn't going to be that challenging.
- EnderMB 12y ago
  While that's most likely true, they all go through a fairly grueling interview process where their theoretical knowledge is really tested. It sounds a bit iffy to make someone with a decorated career or an advanced degree go through that, promise them the world, and have them answering support questions for Google+.

by EnderMB 12y ago

rplnt 12y ago

Google employs thousands of developers. They can't be that strict about who they hire as a 5-people startup. So they sure have lot of less-than-spectacular developers and they don't care. You need talented people as architects (or whatever), not your code monkeys.

EnderMB 12y ago
This is definitely true of large firms, but it still surprises me that the likes of Google could have developers that could get through the Google interview process, but would probably struggle with a take-home test from a company looking for someone to demonstrate an ability to be able to build something.

hmottestad 12y ago

Maybe he gets to work on difficult problems that can only be solved by a great algorithm. Or maybe he works on making a set of algorithms 5% faster. Making a sorting algorithm just 1% faster for the most used cases will probably save a company like Google vast amounts of electricity. I guess there are plenty people who understand both algorithms and programming language features well. But if you want someone who is awesome in algorithms you might not care if they couldn't grasp the simplest programming language feature like a for-each loop, or a static variable.

rifung 12y ago
At such a big company, I doubt anyone could get a job just working on algorithms coming out of undergrad. Maybe if you had a PhD in a relevant field I could see it. I'd bet almost everyone at Google is extremely good with algorithms when compared to the whole population of developers so I really don't see them giving this kind of sought after position to someone so junior. There's just too much risk for the managers to give it to someone who's still unproven.

rogy 12y ago

I went to University with someone who aced every written CS exam in 'software patterns', 'user experience', 'computer architecture' and the like who landed a job at Google as a software engineer straight out of uni. They couldn't complete a single practical lab exercise without help from peers or lecturers throughout the entire time I knew them. They didn't make it past their trial period.

EnderMB 12y ago
Sounds exactly like the guy I knew. In writing, he knew it all, but had no reference to actually apply it. It sounds like many CS graduates, myself included; without applying yourself in a non-academic setting it's quite hard to be a good developer, because the projects simply aren't big enough or haven't had the man-hours applied. It makes me wonder whether these hiring processes are built for people leaving university, and not necessarily for those that have spent a number of years as software developers. It's a good way to get those that "know" their theory, but it sounds like a terrible way to hire someone who is expected to be not just a competent developer, but talented.
MollyR 12y ago
I used to be like the person you're describing. I had such a hard time with actual software development, until a few years in, when all the theoretical knowledge "clicked". Then I was able to always make consistent gains in dev skills from the os level to higher level software architecture. I think it was because I could understand the core abstractions from the higher level ones. Though I also might be an outlier, because even out of school I study a few hours a night.

Morgawr 12y ago

A thing that we all have to consider is that we've all been beginners once, it really does not matter. Throughout my entire academic career (bachelor + master in CS) I've met my fair share of brilliant people that still struggled with concepts that to me looked very simple and straightforward, and I've also struggled with stuff that others find very easy and natural. It really does not matter, you always learn something new and the things that we didn't know yesterday can turn into the things we know best tomorrow simply because we keep evolving and bettering ourselves. Just because somebody had a hard time grasping Object Oriented Programming (which, really, is not as useful anymore. Plenty of brilliant developers moved past it) in school does not mean that he'd not be a good fit for a demanding company a few years later. This is true for everybody, by the way, just because you feel like you're struggling on some concepts, don't dismiss yourselves. Try applying at some companies that might be 'out of your league' and you will realize that maybe some of them actually aren't that out there after all.

area51org 12y ago

ultimately prove to be less-than-spectacular developers There's no sure-fire way to know exactly who you're hiring unless you know the person (and even then!). But: many of these companies are using the wrong criteria, out of bad habit or sheer laziness. You get "brain teaser" questions ("how would you tell which light bulb had been on in the past 10 minutes?"), coding tests, even demands to know which lsof flag does foobar (but that's why God invented man pages!). In my estimation, the only real way to get inside someone's head is to get them talking about what they've worked on, hear their war stories, and talk in depth about how they've solved problems and built things.

gaius 12y ago

Let's be honest, 99% of Google employees are not working on hard problems like self-driving cars, they're just finding new things to slap ads on. You might need to be impressive in a very narrow way to get in, but the work isn't going to be that challenging.

EnderMB 12y ago
While that's most likely true, they all go through a fairly grueling interview process where their theoretical knowledge is really tested. It sounds a bit iffy to make someone with a decorated career or an advanced degree go through that, promise them the world, and have them answering support questions for Google+.