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The differences between twins who grew up together and were exposed to the same environmental effects were subtle, not necessarily so for the difference between

by heurist 12y ago

The differences between twins who grew up together and were exposed to the same environmental effects were subtle, not necessarily so for the difference between a person and a prediction based on their genome. The comparisons of predictions to real faces from the article showed that (so far) predicted faces miss tons of little details that make people recognizable. Genes do not work in a vacuum, different environmental factors can trigger the use of different genes, and many genes are expressed to varying degrees depending on chance. Say one twin grows up in a nutrient-rich environment while another grows up in a nutrient-poor environment. The nutrient-poor twin will most likely have more developmental issues than the nutrient-rich twin, which can have a wide variety of effects. Perhaps a model trained on more data would be more accurate, but I'll believe it when I see it.

kyberias 12y ago
Clearly you're unable to calibrate your stubborn beliefs with the fact that two identical genomes produce identical looking people. That is VERY strong evidence that a person's face is almost 100% determined by genes. Stop hand-waving and study more developmental biology.
- heurist 12y ago
  I'm certainly stubborn, but I'm not the only stubborn one here. Unless you're a biologist I probably know at least as much about genetics as you, so we're working from the same level of knowledge. Look up epigenetics. The real world is not as perfect as textbooks and experiments like to pretend. Additionally, I happen to think a lot about adaptive systems (obsessive levels of thought sometimes) so the idea that systems develop differently when exposed to different stimuli or environments is a given to me. Check this out: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/one-twin-exercises-the-other-doesnt/?_r=0 http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/one-twin-exercises-... They took identical twins who had already grown to adulthood together and analyzed differences between the sibling who exercised a lot and the one who didn't. Guess what: they found differences that a genetic analysis would not predict! It's trivial in my mind that two identical twins who grew up in very different environments would look noticeably different due to developmental differences. I don't even know what you're arguing over, I never said faces are not genetically determined, only that other things also affect it. That would be the reason for that "almost" part of your assertion. I'm saying that difference is not negligible, some people look very similar by chance. A quick search led me to this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/12/26/144282436/the-photographic-fascination-with-twins http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/12/26/144282436/th... Close, but not identical.

by heurist 12y ago

kyberias 12y ago

Clearly you're unable to calibrate your stubborn beliefs with the fact that two identical genomes produce identical looking people. That is VERY strong evidence that a person's face is almost 100% determined by genes. Stop hand-waving and study more developmental biology.

heurist 12y ago
I'm certainly stubborn, but I'm not the only stubborn one here. Unless you're a biologist I probably know at least as much about genetics as you, so we're working from the same level of knowledge. Look up epigenetics. The real world is not as perfect as textbooks and experiments like to pretend. Additionally, I happen to think a lot about adaptive systems (obsessive levels of thought sometimes) so the idea that systems develop differently when exposed to different stimuli or environments is a given to me. Check this out: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/one-twin-exercises-the-other-doesnt/?_r=0 http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/one-twin-exercises-... They took identical twins who had already grown to adulthood together and analyzed differences between the sibling who exercised a lot and the one who didn't. Guess what: they found differences that a genetic analysis would not predict! It's trivial in my mind that two identical twins who grew up in very different environments would look noticeably different due to developmental differences. I don't even know what you're arguing over, I never said faces are not genetically determined, only that other things also affect it. That would be the reason for that "almost" part of your assertion. I'm saying that difference is not negligible, some people look very similar by chance. A quick search led me to this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/12/26/144282436/the-photographic-fascination-with-twins http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2011/12/26/144282436/th... Close, but not identical.