4 ms·

I lived for a couple years in HK and then other Asian countries, and this does stands out. But if the alternative is a debt-based welfare state.... I don't thi

by latch 12y ago

I lived for a couple years in HK and then other Asian countries, and this does stands out. But if the alternative is a debt-based welfare state.... I don't think there's any doubt the Hong Kong government needs to do a better job with affordable housing, but I also don't like the fact that my nephew was born with a $20K debt while 50% of my mother's pension is being payed by taxpayers.

rayiner 12y ago
That debt isn't new, but is instead just a formalization of an arrangement that goes back to antiquity--each child is born with the obligation to take care of his or her parents when they get old.
- cinquemb 12y ago
  Such arrangement seems to become unsustainable if the age distribution in a population in an area is skewed/starts to skew not in the younger direction, and if the younger generations don't want to take on the debt load.
  - latch 12y ago
    Which seems to be the route most countries are headed towards (India being the obvious exception). Good news is that Japan will get there first, so we can see what the actual impact is.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Japan is a-typical in many ways.
- DanielBMarkham 12y ago
  Syphilis is also not new, but that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. Inter-generational debt can and does destroy both societies and governmental systems. I'd argue that over the next 40 years, it's probably the biggest problem the western democracies are facing. I didn't want to dive too much into the political side of this, but I found your comment to be a little too flip given the nature of the topic. One of the major advancements in civilization was the idea that parents _cannot_ pass their debts down to their children. That worked great for many decades, but we seem to have found away around that by collectivizing it. Not good.
  - rayiner 12y ago
    > Syphilis is also not new, but that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. This is more like the wheel rather than syphilis. Something created by humans to serve a purpose, that endures because it continues to be useful. > One of the major advancements in civilization was the idea that parents _cannot_ pass their debts down to their children. With welfare, it's not parents' debts being passed on to their children. Its the childrens' obligation to begin with.
    - cinquemb 12y ago
      >This is more like the wheel rather than syphilis. Something created by humans to serve a purpose, that endures because it continues to be useful. I see it more like a implementation of a way to allocate resources throughout a society, that increasingly becomes suboptimal over time as the incentives to participate in such an arrangement (not to be read/interpreted as agreement) will become less distributed among individuals. One would think that with the technology we have at our disposal, societies wouldn't have to rely on co-opting parties that didn't ask to be born where they are told, "it's your obligation", when distributing resources for sustenance and quality of life.
      - harryh 12y ago
        If the young are unwilling to support the old then there will be no such thing as retirement. Is that really what you want?
        toomuchtodo 12y ago
        As someone still young (32), I am hesitant to accept an obligation I was unwilling to negotiate or choose myself. If we can provide food, shelter, and energy to the elderly in an automated fashion, how can there be no retirement?
        gshubert17 12y ago
        All humans are born into situations from which they benefit, without having previously earned or merited it, and for which they have obligations, also without having previously agreed to it. Since that aspect of human nature seems to me impossible to change, my attitude is to try to live with both benefits and obligations I have "inherited".

by latch 12y ago

rayiner 12y ago

That debt isn't new, but is instead just a formalization of an arrangement that goes back to antiquity--each child is born with the obligation to take care of his or her parents when they get old.

cinquemb 12y ago
Such arrangement seems to become unsustainable if the age distribution in a population in an area is skewed/starts to skew not in the younger direction, and if the younger generations don't want to take on the debt load.
- latch 12y ago
  Which seems to be the route most countries are headed towards (India being the obvious exception). Good news is that Japan will get there first, so we can see what the actual impact is.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Japan is a-typical in many ways.
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
Syphilis is also not new, but that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. Inter-generational debt can and does destroy both societies and governmental systems. I'd argue that over the next 40 years, it's probably the biggest problem the western democracies are facing. I didn't want to dive too much into the political side of this, but I found your comment to be a little too flip given the nature of the topic. One of the major advancements in civilization was the idea that parents _cannot_ pass their debts down to their children. That worked great for many decades, but we seem to have found away around that by collectivizing it. Not good.
- rayiner 12y ago
  > Syphilis is also not new, but that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. This is more like the wheel rather than syphilis. Something created by humans to serve a purpose, that endures because it continues to be useful. > One of the major advancements in civilization was the idea that parents _cannot_ pass their debts down to their children. With welfare, it's not parents' debts being passed on to their children. Its the childrens' obligation to begin with.
  - cinquemb 12y ago
    >This is more like the wheel rather than syphilis. Something created by humans to serve a purpose, that endures because it continues to be useful. I see it more like a implementation of a way to allocate resources throughout a society, that increasingly becomes suboptimal over time as the incentives to participate in such an arrangement (not to be read/interpreted as agreement) will become less distributed among individuals. One would think that with the technology we have at our disposal, societies wouldn't have to rely on co-opting parties that didn't ask to be born where they are told, "it's your obligation", when distributing resources for sustenance and quality of life.
    - harryh 12y ago
      If the young are unwilling to support the old then there will be no such thing as retirement. Is that really what you want?
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
        As someone still young (32), I am hesitant to accept an obligation I was unwilling to negotiate or choose myself. If we can provide food, shelter, and energy to the elderly in an automated fashion, how can there be no retirement?
        gshubert17 12y ago
        All humans are born into situations from which they benefit, without having previously earned or merited it, and for which they have obligations, also without having previously agreed to it. Since that aspect of human nature seems to me impossible to change, my attitude is to try to live with both benefits and obligations I have "inherited".