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For Texas Instruments, Calculator Hackers Don't Add Up
- jgrahamc 17y agoIf you use a 512-bit RSA modulus then you are asking for it to be factored. I am in the process of factorizing the 512-bit RSA modulus of a very famous company and will disclose it (responsibly) once it is done. Factorizing keys of that size is doable on high-end consumer hardware with a little patience.
- wallflower 17y agoThe original forum thread was entertaining to read after the fact (parts have since been redacted). "Oh my good lord... You need to explain how you did this. Now. To somebody. EDIT: I just confirmed this is what I think it is. This needs to go to ticalc.org. Are you being intentionally cryptic about this and want to stay unknown?" http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=8888 http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=8888 (via http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=771736 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=771736)
- daeken 17y agoRepost of the original message that started it all -- spread it far and wide: Gentlemen, A mathematical morsel for your entertainment and edification. The number 6,857,599,914,349,403,977,654,744,967, 172,758,179,904,114,264,612,947,326, 127,169,976,133,296,980,951,450,542, 789,808,884,504,301,075,550,786,464, 802,304,019,795,402,754,670,660,318, 614,966,266,413,770,127 is the product of 5,174,413,344,875,007,990,519,123,187, 618,500,139,954,995,264,909,695,897, 020,209,972,309,881,454,541 and 1,325,290,319,363,741,258,636,842,042, 448,323,483,211,759,628,292,406,959, 481,461,131,759,210,884,908,747.
- csbrooks 17y agoIt highlights the absurdity of the whole thing, really. It seems hard for TI to argue that it's illegal to post a mathematical fact, doesn't it? Especially one that's so concise and straightforward.
- zackattack 17y agoYou're neglecting the importance of context.
- eru 17y agoYes. Otherwise I could publish something like [Source of MS Windows in binary] + 1 = [Source of MS Windows in binary + 1] However, I while I feel that breaking into systems should be punishable, I think that breaking cryptography should not be, as long as you inform the owner a six months before going public, and do not use the result for any personal gain.
- jrockway 17y agoNo cryptography was broken. Given a number, he found a number that divided it. It's a property of the universe, and you can't copyright properties of the universe. (That gravity is mine!!!) I think that breaking cryptography should not be, as long as you inform the owner a six months before going public, and do not use the result for any personal gain. It worries me that anyone would say something like this. I notice that 2 * 2 is 4, and I have to wait 6 months before telling anyone? Or what? What would TI do with this information? Why does TI have a right to tell me what I can do with chunks of plastic with TI's logo on it? (Remember, he's not copying their software; he wants to delete their software and use his own.) What legal framework would this fit into? Factoring numbers has nothing to do with copyright law, and a new law suppressing the publication of scientific research is a clear violation of the Constitution. Even if it is illegal, people can't be stopped; you can't police the entire Internet, and you can't stop people from installing software on their calculator. There is no way a government or corporation could monitor this. So you basically want to make a law that is a violation of hundereds of years of American principles, that is completely impossible to enforce, and that will drastically slow down scientific and mathematical progress. All so a piece of plastic that says "TI" on it can only run TI's buggy code? Wow. I ... just don't know what to say. You also use the word "owner". Who owns a number? Does TI own the number because they used it to sign some software? Can I "own" the number 4 because I say I do? If you are in a situation where you have four pieces of candy, and want to split them between you and your friend, should you have to inform me of your intentions and wait 6 months before giving yourself two pieces of candy and your friend the other two pieces? Why not? I'm the owner of the number 4, and anything you do with it needs my approval. The thing about "personal gain" is also insane. Everyone uses facts for personal gain. Big investment banks analyze market trends to make themselves billions of dollars. TI assumes you can't factor a number, and they use that to prevent you from cheating on math tests. All "personal gain" of the same variety. Should all enterprise be made illegal? Now that I think about it, I guess your post is sarcasm... but you had me worried there for a minute.
- reedlaw 17y agoWhat could TI's motivation possibly be? How could they lose any business by hackers modifying firmware? Instead, it seems it would be more likely to increase hardware sales.
- unwind 17y agoI'm not sure about the details, but perhaps they're afraid that if the ROM key is broken, people can more easily read out the ROM code, and use it in a cheap clone of the hardware? There might be a larger monetary value associated with the actual OS code, than with the hardware design itself. As I said though, I'm not sure about the details here; you'd of course expect the CPU on the calculator to be able to access the ROM code in order to run it, but perhaps it's somehow obfuscated when that happens.
- kwantam 17y agoMy understanding (which is incomplete) is that this is only a signing key. Even if they are somehow relying on this key to prevent cloning, are they seriously under the impression that a 512-bit key is sufficient to keep a bunch of guys in Shenzhen from making a firmware-compatible device? Any effort to clone has long since come to fruition, and it's extremely likely they know this. My guess: lawyers justifying their existence by picking fights with people they expect can't fight back. I'm glad the EFF has stepped in.
- duskwuff 17y agoIt's not even keeping anyone from cloning, because a Chinese manufacturer could just copy the ROM wholesale, signing key and all. Or patch out the signing key checks, or replace the key with one of their own... quite literally, the only thing this key is doing is keeping device owners from installing unauthorized applications and replacement OSes.
- daeken 17y agoThis is purely a signing key. It's not used for any sort of copy protection but solely to prevent unauthorized code from running.
- gcv 17y agoTom Cross, a security technology researcher in Atlanta, received a cease-and-desist letter from TI after merely posting about the hackers on his blog, ... [and] took down his link. Excuse me, taking down a link to a discussion of the key? Does the DMCA really extend that far? If it does, it really sounds like it could be challenged on First Amendment grounds. Otherwise, either this guy has no backbone, or there is more to the story.
- scott_s 17y agoIt's easy to posture how you'd fight The Man when it's not you who's threatened with financial ruin and the time equivalent to a second job.
- pasbesoin 17y agoMy comment is largely reiterative, but important enough to emphasize. It's not the law as written, but as it plays out in the larger socio-economic sphere, that is often determinant. It doesn't matter what your rights are, if the other guy can spend you into the ground with impunity. Taken to extreme, it's one reason we regulate monopolies (in the U.S.). You may come up with a better product, but if the other guy has a lock on the market... If you don't have the resources, the wherewithal yourself to execute the fight, how do you make it? On your own, your one option is the shop for a lawyer who believe you have enough of a chance that their willing to invest in the effort (in return for a hefty share of any judgment in your favor). If you are fortunate, the EFF or another organization may take up your case and use the pooled contributions of its members to fund the fight. Even then, what will the publicity do to your career and other aspects of your life, depending on who you work for, etc. Fighting such things, one way or another, is important, but it is not easy and not everyone has the means, financial or otherwise. The means to fight, and/or the means to survive if the judgment (and penalties) goes against them.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- kwantam 17y agoThe more fundamental question here: can the DMCA really be used to prevent a person from factoring a number and disclosing the results? This is insanity.
- jcl 17y agoI'd guess that it can, if that number is being used to protect a copyrighted work. That sounds like exactly a situation that the DMCA was designed to make illegal.
- ars 17y agoIt's not though. It's protecting hardware, not software. It's not stopping copyright violation at all. It's preventing "unauthorized" software from running on the hardware. I simply don't see how the DMCA applies here. In fact I can't see how any copyright law at all applies here. No one is copying any code, they are running their own code. The key they found convinces the device to use their code.
- jcl 17y agoMy impression was that he was asking about factoring in general, not specifically in relation to the TI.
- rbanffy 17y agoNo, but yes. It's not that the number is being used to protect copyright - it's a signing key that prevents you from installing different software on your calculator. But yes. The DMCA has the provision about publishing DRM circumvention techniques and tools. This seems to be one. Stupid and unfair, BTW. TI is hurting itself more than its user base.
- monocasa 17y agoActually the DMCA has an exemption for allowing software interoperability. This sounds like exactly the situation that it was designed not to protect against.
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- zackattack 17y agoAnyone else think that picture resembles a headline from The Onion?
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- billybob 17y agoIn the last 10 years, computers have advanced tremendously. Why do I still see the same TI-whatever calculators in on the store shelves? They don't need to play video or browse the web, but you'd think they'd at least be thinner. Does TI have any competitors? Do they have an exclusive agreement to supply calculators that can be used on standardized tests?
- CamperBob 17y agoDo they have an exclusive agreement to supply calculators that can be used on standardized tests? In a great many cases, yes. That's why they never seen to change or innovate, and also why they're coming down like a load of bricks on anyone who hacks their firmware.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- genieyclo 17y agoLink to Brandon Wilson's site with the key back up: http://www.brandonw.net/ http://www.brandonw.net/ Link to a letter from TI: http://www.brandonw.net/calcstuff/DMCA_notice.txt http://www.brandonw.net/calcstuff/DMCA_notice.txt
- jrockway 17y agoGood to see that he decided not to cave and is retaining legal counsel.
- rick_2047 17y agoumm...amidst of all these no-doubt informative discussion, I found no one here appreciated how cool Hardware Hacking can be. And when it is done with something as minimalist as a Calculator(while these have more power than the first PDPs at MIT labs),there is just one word for it MIND BLOWING. I mean...look at them, they are making fcking GAMES for these. DUDE even FPS?A FPS on a calculator,in your face X-Box.
- pwmanagerdied 17y agoGet the fuck off this site.
- rick_2047 17y agoOk the mentioning that they are cool can be a bad post but not that bad dude.Cool your heels
- rick_2047 17y agoOkeyyy...If I getting down voted these many times,hardware hacking may not be cool.Or did something else ticked someone off?Please any comment might help me understand what is so offensive about this post.
- pmjordan 17y agoI'd guess that your tone, combined with the borderline off-topic-ness and the fact that you haven't really added anything to the conversation ticked people off. I wouldn't and didn't downvote you based on that comment, but certainly wouldn't upvote. I suspect if you'd phrased it differently and maybe made it a little more useful, people would have responded differently, e.g. "I really admire these calculator hackers, it's amazing what can be done on these simple machines, e.g. these cool games: [link], [link] and [link]." The HN userbase appreciates a high signal/noise ratio. Merely calling something "cool" is considered noise. Hope that helps.
- rick_2047 17y agoDoes anyone know if such mods can be done on calculators with no programming power?Like casio Fx- series. I have a fx-911MS so was just curious.