4 ms·

> It's maddening that property owners can vote against new construction, when they have a deep conflict of interest. > landed incumbents voting to screw over t

> It's maddening that property owners can vote against new construction, when they have a deep conflict of interest. > landed incumbents voting to screw over the young That pesky "democracy" and "giving everybody a voice" getting in the way of what I want right now. (oh, and a small nitpick: Homeowners don't have conflict of interest, they simply have a different interest which may conflict with yours)

icebraining 12y ago
That pesky "democracy" and "giving everybody a voice" Can people from outside of London who want to live there vote on those issues?
- mseebach 12y ago
  Most of the planning policy that affects the current housing shortage (along with most things in the UK, really) is decided nationally, so I'm going to have to go with "yes". But ask yourself this: Given where you live now, how do you feel about people who don't live where you do deciding what should happen where you live, because it would suit them (not you) better?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Most of the planning policy that affects the current housing shortage (along with most things in the UK, really) is decided nationally, so I'm going to have to go with "yes". Fair enough, could be a local ordinance (I'm not from the UK). But ask yourself this: Given where you live now, how do you feel about people who don't live where you do deciding what should happen where you live, because it would suit them (not you) better? I think "how would you feel" arguments are generally poor - biased people make selfish choices, and I'm not immune to it. That said, I'm not saying that outsiders should be able to choose; you made a comment about it being democratic, and I was curious if it was true. I don't consider a system where only the incumbents would be allowed to vote as "democratic" - even if I could consider it better than a democratic system.
dropit_sphere 12y ago
Count enough heads and the Right Thing will be found? Democracy is the null hypothesis, not Truth.
- mseebach 12y ago
  Nobody claims democracy is perfect, but on the other hand, deciding that democracy is broken because it doesn't return the result you like is a special kind of arrogant. When you require a large number of people to adjust their behaviour to suit your interest, significant measures of patience and modesty are admirable traits.
crdoconnor 12y ago
>That pesky "democracy" Apparently some people are a fan of the type of democracy that limits voting rights to property owners. Would you like to return to a time when blacks and women couldn't vote either?
- CalRobert 12y ago
  Whoa, whoa - that's not quite what they were saying, I think - and they were opposing me! I was referring to areas which are composed primarily of homeowners voting in ways that prevent other people from living there. There's also the fact that homeowners are more likely to be able to vote due to the greater likelihood of being citizens. Something like 40% of London residents are foreign-born. Interestingly, I'm a foreigner in Dublin, but I'm allowed to vote in local elections after living here for a year.

icebraining 12y ago

That pesky "democracy" and "giving everybody a voice" Can people from outside of London who want to live there vote on those issues?

mseebach 12y ago
Most of the planning policy that affects the current housing shortage (along with most things in the UK, really) is decided nationally, so I'm going to have to go with "yes". But ask yourself this: Given where you live now, how do you feel about people who don't live where you do deciding what should happen where you live, because it would suit them (not you) better?
- icebraining 12y ago
  Most of the planning policy that affects the current housing shortage (along with most things in the UK, really) is decided nationally, so I'm going to have to go with "yes". Fair enough, could be a local ordinance (I'm not from the UK). But ask yourself this: Given where you live now, how do you feel about people who don't live where you do deciding what should happen where you live, because it would suit them (not you) better? I think "how would you feel" arguments are generally poor - biased people make selfish choices, and I'm not immune to it. That said, I'm not saying that outsiders should be able to choose; you made a comment about it being democratic, and I was curious if it was true. I don't consider a system where only the incumbents would be allowed to vote as "democratic" - even if I could consider it better than a democratic system.

dropit_sphere 12y ago

Count enough heads and the Right Thing will be found? Democracy is the null hypothesis, not Truth.

mseebach 12y ago
Nobody claims democracy is perfect, but on the other hand, deciding that democracy is broken because it doesn't return the result you like is a special kind of arrogant. When you require a large number of people to adjust their behaviour to suit your interest, significant measures of patience and modesty are admirable traits.

crdoconnor 12y ago

>That pesky "democracy" Apparently some people are a fan of the type of democracy that limits voting rights to property owners. Would you like to return to a time when blacks and women couldn't vote either?

CalRobert 12y ago
Whoa, whoa - that's not quite what they were saying, I think - and they were opposing me! I was referring to areas which are composed primarily of homeowners voting in ways that prevent other people from living there. There's also the fact that homeowners are more likely to be able to vote due to the greater likelihood of being citizens. Something like 40% of London residents are foreign-born. Interestingly, I'm a foreigner in Dublin, but I'm allowed to vote in local elections after living here for a year.