10 ms·

Show us the data. Unless you believe an average woman is better at the job than the average man, stripping all gender / race information should at best bring it

Show us the data. Unless you believe an average woman is better at the job than the average man, stripping all gender / race information should at best bring it up to the baseline; with the huge skew at the college level (maybe 10% of my year at graduation were women) this doesn't really result in a 'tremendous increase in the number of women'.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
Wish I could upvote twice. Very important insight, and one that is constantly missed in gender discussions. One shouldn't expect any change downstream to suddenly cancel out the effects of something high upstream. BTW. the huge skew at college level seems to be a result of a skew in as early as high-school, or maybe even earlier. [0] has an interesting discussion on the topic. [0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required-ability-act-as-a-proxy-for-actual-required-ability-in-explaining-the-gender-gap/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required...
- pron 12y ago
  It is not missed at all. But the reality of discrimination at a young age is no excuse for not fighting it in software companies, where women constantly report hostile working conditions. The article you linked to is quite good, but it ignores the very real decline over the past few decades[1] in women participation in software relative to other professions. [1]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Of course it's not an excuse. But you should not expect to get results that defy statistics.
    - pron 12y ago
      Defy what statistics? What statistics explain the constant decline in the last few decades? Are women getting dumber?
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        The ones that say, e.g. that if you have 10 men educated in software engineering per one woman and you change your hiring practices to be less discriminating, you shouldn't suddenly expect to have 50/50 gender balance among tech workers in your company. You should see that 10/1 proportion reflected in your staff, if you hire based on merit alone.
        pron 12y ago
        I don't think so, because the rates are not immutable, and you're discounting causation going the other way. If the women who are hired are treated well (which would require their employers to undergo some training), the rate of women attaining software education is likely to rise. "Downstream" likely has a strong effect on "upstream".
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        I agree, but the issue is with a post where someone apparently claims to be getting such results right now.
        pron 12y ago
        First, I don't think they claim a 50/50 split. I guess there's still room for improvement even before hitting the applicant pool limitation (I have seen it, too, BTW, when we hired; the number of women applying is higher than their representation in startups). Second, it's also very possible that there is a local, fast, feedback loop. I think women would be more attracted to companies that already employ a higher number of women, and are known for a hospitable working environment, so it's likely those companies will receive a higher share of women applicants.
        Gurkenmaster 12y ago
  - lmm 12y ago
    So these two things don't seem to fit together. The linked article seems to provide pretty solid evidence that women are just as successful as men when you control by numerical SAT score. But some[1] women do indeed report hostile working conditions. How can this be? Is it: * Working conditions are hostile to women, but this doesn't actually affect anything in terms of income, number of women in the industry and so on? * More cynical variation: any woman who makes it to graduation in a STEM field has already taken a lot of hostility; those who hostility can affect are driven out earlier? * Women and men actually experience equal amounts of hostility, and simply interpret it differently? * Women are better at their jobs (or somehow have it easier) in a way that doesn't show up in numerical SAT scores, and this effect is exactly equal and opposite to that of a hostile work environment? * Something else I haven't thought of? [1] though by no means all, I remember lorettahe's post here a year or so ago
    - pron 12y ago
      I don't think you can combine different statistics of such high dimensionality like that. Unless women math GRE scores are in decline since the eighties -- and they don't correlate with success in science or medicine -- they don't explain the decline in participation in this industry alone. Also, the correlation of women participation and GRE math scores can remain just as strong regardless of the actual participation rates: the high correlation does not explain sex differences (as in this illustration http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritability_plants.jpeg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil...) There is also a danger in looking at statistics about human behavior that only take a snapshot in time, because the data itself changes all the time. For example, it is very possible that ever since women participation started to decline, there have been few role models for women, less desire to participate, and therefore less desire to excel in math. It is as impossible to study social dynamics from a statistical snapshot as it is to study planetary motion from a still photograph of the sky.
      - lmm 12y ago
        > the correlation of women participation and GRE math scores can remain just as strong regardless of the actual participation rates: the high correlation does not explain sex differences (as in this illustration http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil...) I don't understand what you're claiming. The differences in numeric GRE scores absolutely do explain the post-graduation sex differences. Are you claiming that low numeric GRE scores and low workplace success might have some common cause? Sure, but that cause would necessarily be pre-graduation, meaning that's the place to tackle it, and efforts to e.g. make workplaces less hostile aren't going to make any difference.
- PeterisP 12y ago
  You can get a reversal effect by self-selection. Let's assume a simplified model of reality that has exactly two biased filters - an "upstream" bias that causes the pool of qualified candidates to contain only (as an assumed example) 10% women, and a "downstream" bias that causes qualified women candidates to disproportionally not get chosen or get worse offers, that results in a majority of companies hiring only (again, assumed example) 5% women. If your company gets publicly known for hiring fairly, avoiding the second filter, then it may actually result in an effect that would "cancel out the effects of something high upstream" - simply because qualified women candidates may preferentially choose to apply at your organization, and your pool of candidates may contain significantly more qualified women developers than the national average, and thus also the people you hire would contain more qualified women developers than the national average. A company with a reputation "if you're of group X, you'll hate it here" can have a perfectly fair hiring process, but still won't get much of group X simply because they will avoid that organization. An organization like Ku klux klan doesn't really need to do racial discrimination when hiring as most black people simply won't apply. A fair hiring process would result in a proportion of women employees that generally matches the proportion of qualified women applicants, but the proportion of women among qualified applicants may vary significantly between different companies.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Ok, I haven't considered that. That could indeed explain the results. Thanks.
  - sokoloff 12y ago
    It doesn't even need that feedback-to-candidates loop to work. Imagine that the female population of developers is 10%, that they exhibit in every way a performance distribution equal to males in job and interviewing performance, but that every company except yours is half as likely to hire a female candidate as the straight odds would suggest. The candidate pool as experienced by all companies would consist of more than 10% females (as they would need to apply to twice as many places on average) and the average quality of the female candidate may well be higher than the average male candidate because of the adverse selection at play. (Qualified female candidates are being preferentially passed up in favor of inferior male candidates, leaving the residual female candidate pool more talent-rich than the male pool.)
SeanDav 12y ago
Of course it could. If only say 4% of their workforce was women before, and this increased to 8% after stripping out gender identity, then that is a huge increase (double) the amount of women. This is because women are being hired at the rate of 10% (using your figure), which would increase the number of women dramatically over time. I agree that if the initial starting proportion was 10% (again assuming your number is correct) then gender stripping should make no difference - just pointing out that unless you know the starting proportion then the OP's statement is perfectly valid.
rockmeamedee 12y ago
What? There is a strong bias against hiring women. Read about it and steps to reduce it here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Reducing_male_bias_in_hiring http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Reducing_male_bias_in_hir... Everyone (including women) is biased against hiring women in tech. Even if it is tiny, why wouldn't you take steps to reduce your own bias? Even if "the pipeline is the problem", why wouldn't you take all possible steps to reduce the bias at your stage of the pipeline?
tomjen3 12y ago
If the industry hires 2% women, out of 10% talent then there is 8% _of the entire industry_ that this company could snag. This could easily mean more than the entire company being women. Your intuition is right when/if this gets implemented everywhere.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

Wish I could upvote twice. Very important insight, and one that is constantly missed in gender discussions. One shouldn't expect any change downstream to suddenly cancel out the effects of something high upstream. BTW. the huge skew at college level seems to be a result of a skew in as early as high-school, or maybe even earlier. [0] has an interesting discussion on the topic. [0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required-ability-act-as-a-proxy-for-actual-required-ability-in-explaining-the-gender-gap/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/24/perceptions-of-required...

pron 12y ago
It is not missed at all. But the reality of discrimination at a young age is no excuse for not fighting it in software companies, where women constantly report hostile working conditions. The article you linked to is quite good, but it ignores the very real decline over the past few decades[1] in women participation in software relative to other professions. [1]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Of course it's not an excuse. But you should not expect to get results that defy statistics.
  - pron 12y ago
    Defy what statistics? What statistics explain the constant decline in the last few decades? Are women getting dumber?
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      The ones that say, e.g. that if you have 10 men educated in software engineering per one woman and you change your hiring practices to be less discriminating, you shouldn't suddenly expect to have 50/50 gender balance among tech workers in your company. You should see that 10/1 proportion reflected in your staff, if you hire based on merit alone.
      - pron 12y ago
        I don't think so, because the rates are not immutable, and you're discounting causation going the other way. If the women who are hired are treated well (which would require their employers to undergo some training), the rate of women attaining software education is likely to rise. "Downstream" likely has a strong effect on "upstream".
        TeMPOraL 12y ago
        I agree, but the issue is with a post where someone apparently claims to be getting such results right now.
        pron 12y ago
        First, I don't think they claim a 50/50 split. I guess there's still room for improvement even before hitting the applicant pool limitation (I have seen it, too, BTW, when we hired; the number of women applying is higher than their representation in startups). Second, it's also very possible that there is a local, fast, feedback loop. I think women would be more attracted to companies that already employ a higher number of women, and are known for a hospitable working environment, so it's likely those companies will receive a higher share of women applicants.
        Gurkenmaster 12y ago
- lmm 12y ago
  So these two things don't seem to fit together. The linked article seems to provide pretty solid evidence that women are just as successful as men when you control by numerical SAT score. But some[1] women do indeed report hostile working conditions. How can this be? Is it: * Working conditions are hostile to women, but this doesn't actually affect anything in terms of income, number of women in the industry and so on? * More cynical variation: any woman who makes it to graduation in a STEM field has already taken a lot of hostility; those who hostility can affect are driven out earlier? * Women and men actually experience equal amounts of hostility, and simply interpret it differently? * Women are better at their jobs (or somehow have it easier) in a way that doesn't show up in numerical SAT scores, and this effect is exactly equal and opposite to that of a hostile work environment? * Something else I haven't thought of? [1] though by no means all, I remember lorettahe's post here a year or so ago
  - pron 12y ago
    I don't think you can combine different statistics of such high dimensionality like that. Unless women math GRE scores are in decline since the eighties -- and they don't correlate with success in science or medicine -- they don't explain the decline in participation in this industry alone. Also, the correlation of women participation and GRE math scores can remain just as strong regardless of the actual participation rates: the high correlation does not explain sex differences (as in this illustration http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritability_plants.jpeg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil...) There is also a danger in looking at statistics about human behavior that only take a snapshot in time, because the data itself changes all the time. For example, it is very possible that ever since women participation started to decline, there have been few role models for women, less desire to participate, and therefore less desire to excel in math. It is as impossible to study social dynamics from a statistical snapshot as it is to study planetary motion from a still photograph of the sky.
    - lmm 12y ago
      > the correlation of women participation and GRE math scores can remain just as strong regardless of the actual participation rates: the high correlation does not explain sex differences (as in this illustration http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Heritabil...) I don't understand what you're claiming. The differences in numeric GRE scores absolutely do explain the post-graduation sex differences. Are you claiming that low numeric GRE scores and low workplace success might have some common cause? Sure, but that cause would necessarily be pre-graduation, meaning that's the place to tackle it, and efforts to e.g. make workplaces less hostile aren't going to make any difference.
PeterisP 12y ago
You can get a reversal effect by self-selection. Let's assume a simplified model of reality that has exactly two biased filters - an "upstream" bias that causes the pool of qualified candidates to contain only (as an assumed example) 10% women, and a "downstream" bias that causes qualified women candidates to disproportionally not get chosen or get worse offers, that results in a majority of companies hiring only (again, assumed example) 5% women. If your company gets publicly known for hiring fairly, avoiding the second filter, then it may actually result in an effect that would "cancel out the effects of something high upstream" - simply because qualified women candidates may preferentially choose to apply at your organization, and your pool of candidates may contain significantly more qualified women developers than the national average, and thus also the people you hire would contain more qualified women developers than the national average. A company with a reputation "if you're of group X, you'll hate it here" can have a perfectly fair hiring process, but still won't get much of group X simply because they will avoid that organization. An organization like Ku klux klan doesn't really need to do racial discrimination when hiring as most black people simply won't apply. A fair hiring process would result in a proportion of women employees that generally matches the proportion of qualified women applicants, but the proportion of women among qualified applicants may vary significantly between different companies.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Ok, I haven't considered that. That could indeed explain the results. Thanks.
- sokoloff 12y ago
  It doesn't even need that feedback-to-candidates loop to work. Imagine that the female population of developers is 10%, that they exhibit in every way a performance distribution equal to males in job and interviewing performance, but that every company except yours is half as likely to hire a female candidate as the straight odds would suggest. The candidate pool as experienced by all companies would consist of more than 10% females (as they would need to apply to twice as many places on average) and the average quality of the female candidate may well be higher than the average male candidate because of the adverse selection at play. (Qualified female candidates are being preferentially passed up in favor of inferior male candidates, leaving the residual female candidate pool more talent-rich than the male pool.)

SeanDav 12y ago

Of course it could. If only say 4% of their workforce was women before, and this increased to 8% after stripping out gender identity, then that is a huge increase (double) the amount of women. This is because women are being hired at the rate of 10% (using your figure), which would increase the number of women dramatically over time. I agree that if the initial starting proportion was 10% (again assuming your number is correct) then gender stripping should make no difference - just pointing out that unless you know the starting proportion then the OP's statement is perfectly valid.

rockmeamedee 12y ago

What? There is a strong bias against hiring women. Read about it and steps to reduce it here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Reducing_male_bias_in_hiring http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Reducing_male_bias_in_hir... Everyone (including women) is biased against hiring women in tech. Even if it is tiny, why wouldn't you take steps to reduce your own bias? Even if "the pipeline is the problem", why wouldn't you take all possible steps to reduce the bias at your stage of the pipeline?

tomjen3 12y ago

If the industry hires 2% women, out of 10% talent then there is 8% _of the entire industry_ that this company could snag. This could easily mean more than the entire company being women. Your intuition is right when/if this gets implemented everywhere.